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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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711–720 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#711

There are many pervasive, interconnected issues and trends to it, so there's no simple or complete answer: 0. Behavior online doesn't arrive out of a vacuum. If people are miserable because they're working harder, making less and their society is in retreat, they're probably going to take out their frustrations out on the easiest targets. 1. Unplug from social and mainstream media because it doesn't have much value.…

I really appreciate the thoughts above, but I have to question point 4:

> improving the quality of discussions with profile pictures and real names

As a counter-point, imagine a discussion forum in an authoritarian country where your picture and real name is placed next to everything you say online. The discussions may end up being very polite, and full of agreement, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the community is well served by that forum.

To some, that concern may seem irrelevant, since most governments wouldn't attempt to control people that way, but I don't think we have to look very far to find examples where people expressing unpopular opinions face social and professional punishments. Perhaps you would agree that anonymity can be helpful in such situations, (checks notes) "anonsivalley652".

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#712

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

I'm really tired of mainstream articles which are essentially a reporting finding 3 people on twitter who are for/against something and saying "internet is in uproar about whatever"

Well, consider the reporter's POV. It's really easy to browse Twitter for 20 minutes and then spend 10 minutes summarizing your findings. Contacting people who have any connection at all to important events and then convincing them to answer your questions about those events might take all day...

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#713

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

Adding to your point, I'm wondering if OP has ever had a religious group show up at their doorstep. It's the same idea; "Our ideas are right, yours are wrong." There are no laws stopping them from doing this, (short of solicitation statutes) and there's certainly no convincing them they are wrong. Just smile politely and ignore them. Really, it's the same problem just dressed up differently. Now the issue just has th…

Good analogy, but one can always banish the proselytizers with a simple "Sorry, we're Catholic!" (One doesn't even actually have to be Catholic to say this!)

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#714
post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Oh please, politics are an extremely important part of organized religion, at least in the United States. Also "chosing not to participate" is not the same as "systematically destroying."

It wasn't just "choosing not to participate." It was activism seeking to exclude religion from public life. The most important of those being the elimination of religion from public schools in the 1960s. (I should caveat the following by pointing out that the below is not an attempt to convince anybody about what policy would be better. Instead, it's an attempt to describe what I see as a fundamental tension in the approach that we have, for better or worse, adopted.)

A key function of most religions is providing people with a specific moral framework. Fundamental to that is almost always the process of socializing children in that moral framework. (Indeed, the UN recognizes that as a fundamental human right.) At the same time, a key function of schools also is socializing children in the values and morals of their community. For most of American history, there was no conflict between these two institutions--America's overwhelmingly Christian communities socialized their children in their religion through public schools.

The Warren Court's decisions in the 1960s broke that process. Parents had to socialize children in their religion "on their own time." Meanwhile, because teaching morality is an indispensable aspect of socializing children, public schools created an alternative, secular moral framework to impart onto children. Under those precedents, even in communities that were overwhelmingly Christian, and where Christian parents wanted their children raised with a Christian moral framework, public schools were required to teach them something else, in competition with whatever religious instruction they might receive on their own time. It's a unique scenario where attempts to vindicate the individual right of being free from unwanted exposure to religion in schools, has the side effect of dramatically curtailing the ability of the majority in the larger community to impose their religious values into their children.

Taxing people, then using that money to create public schools, and then requiring people to send their kids to those schools, and then prohibiting those schools from teaching kids the religion of their parents, very much has the effect of undermining the propagation of religion. It gives the secular teachings of teachers primacy over whatever religious teachings parents may be able to impart during the waking hours when children aren't in school.

Whether this that approach is nonetheless necessary in a multi-cultural society is a different question. I would point out that countries like Sweden seem to be doing fine allowing religious parents to choose to send their kids to publicly funded religious schools. But I think the effect of promoting secularism and undermining religion is hard to deny.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Encountering the Apache Helicopter joke on 4chan is par for the course, but I just really don't want to hear it out loud from a coworker who is senior to me in a meeting room, and have everyone else laugh along with it.

Yikes, if that happened at your workplace I hope you talked to HR about it. That’s a “joke” in the form of a death threat.

no it's not. it's a joke about genders.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#716
post #51

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. We need to start emphasizing what we have in common, help people see that ultimately we're really not all that different from each other. The internet lets people hide behind this isolating veneer that makes it too easy to just shout at each other and behave in extreme ways that would never be socially…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If InfoWars says Sandy Hook never happened, and they have millions of followers, ban them. That’s a really low bar for banning. Same with Milo. Not only did he repeatedly lie in a very verifiable way, but he did it with the vigor of a bully. These are toxic people and institutions that don’t care about the facts. They’re after your amygdala, and we are, to some extent, slaves to our amygdala. You can get a PhD and st…

Who decides who's lying and who's telling the truth? Who is the arbitrator of an obvious lie. Declaring something an "obvious lie" has historically been used to keep other people down as well. This goes down a very dangerous road. Banning speech is not the right way to deal with this. When you do, you give the speaker more energy. When people in the civil rights movement in the US was slapped down, it gave speakers l…

Banning speech is not the right way to deal with this. When you do, you give the speaker more energy.

Questionable; long term traffic ranking data doesn't seem to bear out your hypothesis. In the case of Infowars, one might note that people put up with its increasing toxicity for a really long time. You don't seem to give any weight to the impact of the Sandy Hook families of Jones' long-running campaign of calling the entire thing a hoax.

All violence, no matter who it is against, should be the hard line .. and it's not, and that's the real issue.

You seem to be arguing that the law gives left-wing people a pass while not doing the same for the alt-right, but a very similar case with the politics reversed took place around the same time and had a very similar outcome (ie, probation).

https://www.berkeleyside.com/2019/09/24/kyle-based-stickman-...

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#720
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your stat on the reach of InfoWars is based on claims from 2017, before the de-platforming. More recent reports point to considerable slumps, eg: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/technology/alex-jones-inf... . Thank you for responding with actual data. I'll have to read the article. > De-platforming worked for Reddit. OP asked for tech contributions to reducing the amount of polarised speech in online spaces. The…

Reddit also delisted the Chapo Trap House subreddit, it's not exclusively conservatives that are toxic. And Reddit's clean up wasn't about liberal vs conservatives, it was about teen-ogling perverts, overt racism, and threats of violence.

What does "toxic" even mean, if it includes CTH? Oooh, they're socialist nerds! Very scary!
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