More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could • Hacker News Board

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#131

Post by 14 » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #103

haunter wrote: post #33

And they will. I think the current migration crisis in Europe is nothing compared to when the Sahel will be finally total uninhabitable all those people will move to Europe. And with the current speed of the global warming I don't think it's that far away.

This seems inevitable at this point. Africa is headed for a population crisis. Places like Somalia and Niger have around 6 or 7 children per woman. These are countries that already import a lot of food to feed rapidly growing populations. If we have another energy shock, it's unclear to me who is going to feed all of these babies.

This is what I am waiting for, anxiously too I will ad. How long before we see the first heat wave kill a million people? Or drought kill several hundred thousand people in a weeks time. Last year South Africa almost ran out of water. I really think it will only be then that we realize the extent of our dire situation and start really acting. What would our government do if there were 5 million people lined up at the border? Would they shoot them down? I don’t like to fear monger but the world is a rough place. It is also unclear to me how we will handle this as it happens.

Edit: right after writing this the very next HN article I come across is massive locust swarms threatening crops in Africa. Scary

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#132

Post by baybal2 » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

chrismeller wrote: post #95

fxtentacle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure they offer that, but it might cost you lots of money. For example, Singapore requires you to have SG$ 2.5 Mio in assets if you want an unlimited visa.

Many countries do. Yeah, it usually requires a TON of liquid cash or assets, though there are even a couple of EU countries that are hard up for investment money and provide easy investment visas for very little. Some (like Estonia) require that you get your business plan validated by a committee or board, but others (like Spain and Portugal and Hungary) really don’t seem to care as long as you claim you can make mon…

China once used to be like that, and the 10 years "golden" (called that way for a hefty processing fee) business visa was pretty much accepted as a "pay to play" option to stay in China.

A few years ago China made a u-turn and started tightening on legit applicants. Property bought by business visa holders is now in legal limbo. It's said that it is now nowhere as certain for small business owners to get an extension, even when their business operate in good standing.

If you get kicked out with you business still in China, it will suck.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#133

Post by sdinsn » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

jermaustin1 wrote: post #57

jaywalk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to take someone's job, or milk the welfare system How are they supposed to know that? A two year vacation is extraordinarily strange.

Proof of self sufficiency.

You can get permanent residency in the US for a $1 million investment (or $500k investment in rural areas).

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#134

Post by sdinsn » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #26

I'd add some background to what fehyjn says below. The entire world was relatively borderess prior to 20th century, and it was completely outside of humanly possible for the state anywhere to keep tap on every individual. If you talk about the period from medieval, to early renaissance. It was very natural for every polity to want to get more subjects. Feudal lords couldn't have been more happy to see more people mig…

> entire world was relatively borderess prior to 20th century, and it was completely outside of humanly possible for the state anywhere to keep tap on every individual

You could also write that it was borderless because they couldn't track every individual.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#135

Post by ryanmercer » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #123

fxtentacle wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. If you stay somewhere for such a long time, you are much more likely than the average tourist to use government services, meaning you start to consume other people's tax dollars. As such, it makes a lot of sense for the government to charge you lots of money extra for a longer stay, which is what most of them do.

Not all concerns are purely economic. If you live in a city multiple years, you might want to participate in an election, for instance.

I imagine another concern is that the longer you are in a place, the higher the chance you're going to get pregnant or get someone pregnant. Children born within a nation's borders often are citizens which then complicates your situation if you plan to leave and gives you more of a claim to go "but you can't deport me, my kid is a citizen!" in more civilized countries.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#136

Post by streb-lo » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #129

streb-lo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the people of CA have surrendered their ability to make these decisions to the State in exchange for certain benefits. The people in CA cannot, for instance, allow workers from London to freely immigrate despite their shared interests and mutual benefit. I'm not making a value judgement on that claim -- just pointing out that it's no different than if two or more countries were to subvert their provinces/cities/c…

>The people in CA cannot, for instance, allow workers from London to freely immigrate despite their shared interests and mutual benefit. Right, part of the pact with OK is that they have ceded some rights to a common political body. Nothing you've said contradicts what I said.

OK, then we agree.

The fact that CA (which has more in common with London, UK than Oklahoma City) has freedom of movement only with the latter has nothing to do with their decision as a community and everything to do with decisions made long ago and social contracts they were born into.

My point is that a communities' right to self-govern has very little to do with where you're allowed to freely move today -- it's a vast web of historical agreements, geopolitics, and the lottery of birth.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#137

Post by dbancajas » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

fehyjn wrote: post #86

mrits wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does anyone know you have a degree and no criminal records?

I can prove it in embassy or whatever. Take a paper from police and a diploma from my university.

how do we know your docs are not fake?

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#138

Post by ryanmercer » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

streb-lo wrote: post #111

remarkEon wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely grounded in self-determination. That people from CA let people from OK move there is their choice . They could levy taxes on movers to discourage this no problem. And, frankly, I bet if you put this up to a vote a lot of people in (metropolitan) California would be just fine with a policy that aimed to keep those stinking farmers away.

Which would be very quickly struck down by the Supreme Court, like many of the other levies/duties that have been attempted to be applied on new residents from other states.

I am not a lawyer but specifically, per the wiki linked in this comment chain, I think it would fall under the

>(for those who become permanent residents of a state) the right to be treated equally to native-born citizens

mentioned in Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999)

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#139

Post by refurb » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

fehyjn wrote: post #86

mrits wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does anyone know you have a degree and no criminal records?

I can prove it in embassy or whatever. Take a paper from police and a diploma from my university.

You answered your own question. A visa is often just validating what you claim.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#140

Post by HBKXNCUO » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

streb-lo wrote: post #136

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The people in CA cannot, for instance, allow workers from London to freely immigrate despite their shared interests and mutual benefit. Right, part of the pact with OK is that they have ceded some rights to a common political body. Nothing you've said contradicts what I said.

OK, then we agree. The fact that CA (which has more in common with London, UK than Oklahoma City) has freedom of movement only with the latter has nothing to do with their decision as a community and everything to do with decisions made long ago and social contracts they were born into. My point is that a communities' right to self-govern has very little to do with where you're allowed to freely move today -- it's a…

>My point is that a communities' right to self-govern has very little to do with where you're allowed to freely move today -- it's a vast web of historical agreements, geopolitics, and the lottery of birth.

Historical agreements can be changed if there is political will, but of course inertia is important.

To put my answer to your question "Why should people in CA let people from OK move there?" in a different way, people from CA should allow people from OK to move there, and vice versa, because free movement between the two areas is a show of good faith. It tells the people of OK that the people of CA trust them not to exploit that privilege for their own gain, which is of course something that not everyone can be trusted not to do. Shows of good faith of that kind help both sides trust the other side more, to the point where they are comfortable with, for example, pooling military resources, which are absolutely critical to maintaining the future existence of both groups and are more effective when pooled.

Might the people of CA have enough in common with the people of London that each side could trust the other not to exploit their generosity? Maybe, but it takes quite a while for that trust to build.