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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#271
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But in theory courts and military can stop him. The voters can also stop him. Instead, Turkish voters not only re-elected him multiple times, they even voted in one special election to give him even more power. The Turkish people are getting the government they've voted for. >Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while. Yes, but what can you do when a nation of people democratically decide…

It's not that simple. Erdogan massively repressed his rivals, such as the parties representing the Kurdish part of the population and their sympathizers (HDP) and the whole Gülen movement, not to mention the young movement protesting in the Gezi Park a few years ago. So we cannot pretend that the elections held were fair and open, e.g. the results aren't representative of the entire population of Turkey.

Results of any election are never representative of the entire population. That's the nature of democracy. If you have 99.999% of the population voting for the same person (like in Saddam's Iraq), then it's obvious the election was a sham. Democracy is all about the majority getting to choose the leaders.

As for repression, Erdogan didn't do that all by himself. Autocrats like that persist because they have a power structure under them that supports them and keeps them in power. In a democratic country like Turkey, this is supported by the people voting to keep these power structures in place. In short, the majority of the people there do support him. Yeah, it sucks that he repressed minorities, but that's one of the dangers of democracy: if the majority doesn't care about protecting minorities and their civil rights, then the minorities get stomped on. The only thing that makes a democratic system better than a completely autocratic system (like North Korea) is that at least in the democracy, there's a chance the majority will protect the minorities, and whatever institutions have been built in the system of government to do so and prevent leaders from having too much power. But as Turkey shows, and also in Germany in the 1930s, it sometimes falls apart, mainly because the people allow it to.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except lately the economy has been getting much worse. This is a regular pattern with right-wing populist governments. When they get into power they institute a set of economic policies that lead to wide-spread prosperity in the short term, but in the long-term are a disaster. As far as elections go, the government pretends to be in favor of free and fair elections, but its political philosophy is a set of arguments…

> This is a regular pattern with right-wing populist governments. Left -wing populist governments have been known to do that, too. And left-wing populist governments have also been known to place a thumb on the scales of elections, in order to make sure that they come out "correctly".

I agree, these are also often problems with left-wing populist governments. The reason I was talking about right-wing populist governments is that is what Turkey has.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#273
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lot of yelling here today about the block - guys it was lifted. After a ruling by a court. Sure, after 2.5 years. And after being blocked in the first place.

These sorts of court cases are rarely resolved quickly in any country that I know of. It seems easy from the outside, but it isn't.

In a freer country massive and immediate public uproar would have roasted hundreds of political careers and caused fast action at the top.

In an even freer country, it would not have happened in the first place.

What am I supposed to be impressed by?

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except lately the economy has been getting much worse. This is a regular pattern with right-wing populist governments. When they get into power they institute a set of economic policies that lead to wide-spread prosperity in the short term, but in the long-term are a disaster. As far as elections go, the government pretends to be in favor of free and fair elections, but its political philosophy is a set of arguments…

Can you tell me how you classify right wing and left wing?

Like many things in the area of political philosophy, the distinction is an inexact one. But roughly speaking, right-wing political philosophies stress ethnicity, traditional culture and usually religion, whereas left-wing political philosophies are universalist and based on Enlightement philosphy. Also left-wing philosophy is socialist, whereas right-wing tends to be crony capitalism.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#275

"... a 26 December 2019 ruling by the Constitutional Court of Turkey that the more than two and a half year block imposed by the Turkish government was unconstitutional." Your takeaways: 1) Turkey has a Constitutional Court. 2) Turkey has a constitution. 3) The court makes rulings and they are carried out. 4) Erdogan did something and it was "checked" and "balanced." Sounds an awful lot like a nation of laws, ruled b…

Erdogan's program of turning Turkey into an authoritarian, Islamic society is proceeding in steps, and he has not yet fully taken over the courts.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow most western supported military coups and regimes persist, in South America, Africa, middle East and East Asia. And most of these coups have wide spread support in a wider political panorama. So military coups or uprisings seem to destabilize and stabilize third world. Yet ongoing demonstrations in France and England are usually ignored and violently suppressed without support from elites. I'm curious why

> western supported military coups and regimes persist, in South America Say what? AFAIK, Cuba and Venezuela, the only remaining "military regimes in Latin America" are not "western supported".

egypt & bolivia are the only military dictatorship and have full support from democratic west.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US eventually did win the space race They did _because they started a new round_. What the US did is equivalent to losing badly and then screaming "Last goal wins" repeatedly until you score the last goal. Yes, US sources claim a US victory. That doesn't mean they actually won. > The US view is that they did all the heavy lifting, The Soviet Union was responsible for ~80% of german casualties. The Soviets made…

> The Soviet Union was responsible for ~80% of german casualties. None of which would have been possible without the extraordinary industrial might of the US that kept the USSR supplied. They had no capacity to fight minus being supplied. Do you know how much territory the European allies had reclaimed in the years of fighting prior to the US invasion of Europe? None. There is no scenario where Nazi Germany gets defe…

[dead]

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#278
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that the US contributed the most to ending WW2 (Not the opinion at the time) Common perception is also that the US won the space race (Not the opinion at the time outside the US). Perhaps "common perception" isn't the right metric to go by.

The other side: in USSR we were not even taught about WWII. It was "The Great Patriotic War". And it was all Red Army vs. Germans.

At least you come out of this with education on the subset of the war that was larger than all other subsets combined.

In the US we do the opposite.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stretch everything it can find to give himself more unrestrained power. That should unfortunately be pretty familiar to people who live in the US at this point. Is this level of trolling even considered trying? Trump has done very little to expand the powers of the US presidency.

The executive orders?

The executive orders that every president has had the power to use (and has used) for the previous presidencies?

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whose perception. Common as in 'the world' is something that we don't really have so you are always going to have to go by some locally colored version of events. The US eventually did win the space race, but they lost Rounds 1 and 2 to Russia. The United States getting involved in WW2 when they could no longer ignore it ended up getting the formidable American industrial engine engaged in ways that had…

> The US eventually did win the space race They did _because they started a new round_. What the US did is equivalent to losing badly and then screaming "Last goal wins" repeatedly until you score the last goal. Yes, US sources claim a US victory. That doesn't mean they actually won. > The US view is that they did all the heavy lifting, The Soviet Union was responsible for ~80% of german casualties. The Soviets made…

> They did _because they started a new round_. What the US did is equivalent to losing badly and then screaming "Last goal wins" repeatedly until you score the last goal.

That’s a senseless analogy. There was no game with structured rules about number of rounds, etc.

That’s like claiming someone only won a war because they kept fighting until the other side gave up and didn’t want to fight anymore.

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