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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#121

Post by TheNorthman »

jacquesm wrote: post #100
TheNorthman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that the US contributed the most to ending WW2 (Not the opinion at the time) Common perception is also that the US won the space race (Not the opinion at the time outside the US). Perhaps "common perception" isn't the right metric to go by.

It depends on whose perception. Common as in 'the world' is something that we don't really have so you are always going to have to go by some locally colored version of events. The US eventually did win the space race, but they lost Rounds 1 and 2 to Russia. The United States getting involved in WW2 when they could no longer ignore it ended up getting the formidable American industrial engine engaged in ways that had…

> The US eventually did win the space race

They did _because they started a new round_. What the US did is equivalent to losing badly and then screaming "Last goal wins" repeatedly until you score the last goal. Yes, US sources claim a US victory. That doesn't mean they actually won.

> The US view is that they did all the heavy lifting,

The Soviet Union was responsible for ~80% of german casualties. The Soviets made a difference in Western Europe by winning in the east. It's what killed the german propaganda machine.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#122

Post by justinclift »

parsimo2010 wrote: post #77
justinclift wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if the commonly disputed borders of some countries is going to make things tricky in those areas?

It is nearly guaranteed that SpaceX will ask the US government what their official stance is and comply with that. They have a lot of space launch contracts that they don't want to lose.

Yeah, probably a good approach in this instance.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#123

Post by walrus01 »

lopmotr wrote: post #91
kitteh wrote: post #82

Turkey is an interesting country to deal with. For example let's say you are a hosting company in the US and one of your customers is rebroadcasting Turkey television. A turkey govt agency would reach out to you and ask that you terminate that customer. If you refused, they go to the domestic incumbent Telecom (Turk Telecom) and null route your entire company ip addr space. Basically all of turkey won't be able to hi…

To be honest, that sounds like the reasonable and fair thing to do when a foreign company is violating your laws on the internet. First tell them to stop, then block them. Not every country has this "safe harbor" concept that the US does, so you may have to take responsibility for the content you host if you want access to those markets.

I'm really disappointed when I see this sort of response. Somebody in a foreign country is hosting content on their own servers that offends you, or violates one of your local laws, so your best possible response is to null route an entire block of their IP space? Please tell us which ASNs you do network engineering for...

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#124

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

walrus01 wrote: post #123
lopmotr wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, that sounds like the reasonable and fair thing to do when a foreign company is violating your laws on the internet. First tell them to stop, then block them. Not every country has this "safe harbor" concept that the US does, so you may have to take responsibility for the content you host if you want access to those markets.

I'm really disappointed when I see this sort of response. Somebody in a foreign country is hosting content on their own servers that offends you, or violates one of your local laws, so your best possible response is to null route an entire block of their IP space? Please tell us which ASNs you do network engineering for...

> hosting content on their own servers that offends you

It's not about offense in the parent comment, it's about theft.

I see this as a reasonable response, given no additional context.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#125

Post by aaron695 »

muznar wrote: post #54

I always wonder what the real effects of these kind of blocks. For even average users of the internet, it was easy to overcome this block by just putting a "0" in front of the domain name. 0wikipedia.org is a clone of wikipedia and it was accessible. WHOIS search shows 0wikipedia domain name was created on 4 May 2017, just five days after the block. I am a Turkish grad student in the US. Whenever I visited Turkey, I…

> For even average users of the internet, it was easy to overcome this block by just putting a "0" in front of the domain name.

I disagree. Blocks like this work.

China started this way. The Firewall was weak and easy to circumvent, but people just didn't go around it.

If you Google something and get multiple results will you chose the one you can read straight up or the one that takes work. One click beats two. And one click kicks ass on typing.

Android chrome is removing editing URLS as a general idea for instance. Google considers URLs as redundant. They are not right, but also not wrong.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#126

Post by GuardianCaveman »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #124
walrus01 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really disappointed when I see this sort of response. Somebody in a foreign country is hosting content on their own servers that offends you, or violates one of your local laws, so your best possible response is to null route an entire block of their IP space? Please tell us which ASNs you do network engineering for...

> hosting content on their own servers that offends you It's not about offense in the parent comment, it's about theft. I see this as a reasonable response, given no additional context.

Yes but there is all of the collateral damage of other hosted sites who did nothing.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#127

Post by WanderPanda »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #112
monadic2 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception about soviet anything is generally wrong, at least in the us.

And yet, we're still here, and they're gone. I guess that's our fault, huh. It always is.

Maybe you didn‘t win each sprint, but you definitely won the marathon

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#128

Post by WanderPanda »

majewsky wrote: post #93
jammygit wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the near future when governments become more technically adept and those holes get plugged. These stories are scariest because they utterly prove how eager governments are to control access to information and communications. Same thing with DRM - its scariest because one day it will work

> Same thing with DRM - its scariest because one day it will work. If corps really needed DRM to work well, it would work well already. The reason that it doesn't is that there is no business case: 1. The music industry has mostly (heavy emphasis on "mostly") woken up to the fact that DRM does not stop piracy. Only a good user experience stops privacy. Hence why piracy stopped being a big problem once streaming servi…

„Only a good user experience stops privacy.“ Very true

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#129

Post by rimliu »

TheNorthman wrote: post #90
blattimwind wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that Soviet electroncis were generally 10-15 years behind.

Common perception is that the US contributed the most to ending WW2 (Not the opinion at the time) Common perception is also that the US won the space race (Not the opinion at the time outside the US). Perhaps "common perception" isn't the right metric to go by.

The other side: in USSR we were not even taught about WWII. It was "The Great Patriotic War". And it was all Red Army vs. Germans.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#130

Post by brownbat »

jacquesm wrote: post #100
TheNorthman wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common perception is that the US contributed the most to ending WW2 (Not the opinion at the time) Common perception is also that the US won the space race (Not the opinion at the time outside the US). Perhaps "common perception" isn't the right metric to go by.

It depends on whose perception. Common as in 'the world' is something that we don't really have so you are always going to have to go by some locally colored version of events. The US eventually did win the space race, but they lost Rounds 1 and 2 to Russia. The United States getting involved in WW2 when they could no longer ignore it ended up getting the formidable American industrial engine engaged in ways that had…

I know it's somewhat fashionable to say it was all really just a Russian/German war. You rightly point out the contributions of Canada and the UK relative to population. But I have one defense of the naive "but but the US mattered!" view...

Khrushchev and Stalin readily admitted that they would have been quickly overrun by the Germans without the US basically flooding the Eastern front with fuel, trucks, munitions and other support. US readymade military support to Russia amounted to something like a seventh of Russia's GDP.

Between 1943 and 1945, the United States built more ships than had existed in the world before 1939. The US built and crewed more aircraft than the rest of the world combined. The US provided a third of the raw materials, tools, and transport the Soviet Army used. It was the industrial backbone of all of the Allied armies. It brought the Allied to Axis GDP ratio to 5/1 by the end of the war.

Which is just a mere footnote, if your model of warfare completely discounts the importance of logistics and materiel. Or if you believe that the industrial warmaking capacity of your opponent is irrelevant to whether or not you sue for peace.

I know it's tempting to say that contributions don't "count" unless they involve deaths, but, as one notable WWII participant once said, "No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country."

Stalin put it this way: the British bought time, the Americans brought gold, and Russians provided blood.

To be fair, it would be distortative to diminish any of those contributions.

With apologies to: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/ and https://www.quora.com/How-was-the-American-contribution-in-W...

People should learn more about lend lease: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

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