U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#261

Post by chongli » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

samename wrote: post #247

0xB31B1B wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, this issue was much debated at the creation of democratic rule in Greece. Their solution to the problem of ambition and resource guarding is “sortition”, which is a lottery in which a large fraction of the democratic body is chosen by chance rather than by popular election, skill or ambition. This was meant to be a check on the development of the type of permanent ruling oligarchy we see developing in the…

Is the sortition method effective at combating this problem?

I have heard about sortition and its supposed benefits but I have never read anything about it used in a real life context. However, perhaps something related to sortition is the concept of visibly random groups [1], which is being tested and used in classroom settings. The paper goes into a lot more detail, but the essential benefit is that the usual cliques and friend groups get disrupted and everyone feels way more comfortable working together with all of their classmates.

[1] http://www.peterliljedahl.com/wp-content/uploads/Visibly-Ran...

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#262

Post by thewebcount » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

smitty1110 wrote: post #242

abandonliberty wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That site isn't loading for me. I would hope that vapor-permeable membranes work (e.g. gore-tex). The only problem is that the outside of the garment gets wet, and they're not very breathable

Gore-tex is PTFE, also known as Teflon, which is a flurocarbon. Several of the waste products or reactants for making Teflon are in the same category as DWR products, and are basically toxic forever. There's not much you can do if you need fabrics with these properties, you just need to pick you poison.

But Teflon doesn't react with anything. That's its purpose. So even though it's a fluorocarbon, it's unlikely to cause health problem because it just won't react with your body. Or is there some other mechanism through which it causes damage, such as blocking something by physically being in the way?

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#263

Post by thewebcount » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #248

rayiner wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we have no idea whether the benefit from doing so would outweigh the loss of non-stick and stain-free products?

That's supposed to be a joke?

No, it's a legitimate question. Think of it this way. If we stop using Teflon coatings on pots and pans, will that, for example, increase the amount of cooking oil used in cooking? And if so, will that cause other health effects such as more oil being aerosolized and getting in people's lungs more? Will it cause more oil to clog up pipes (think London's "fatbergs" for example)? Will it cause more oil to go into landfills, etc.? There are frequently unintended consequences to these sorts of changes and you may just be trading one poison for another one or a worse one.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#264

Post by paulmd » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

forgotmypw wrote: post #13

If there was a magical way of convincing every single person in the U.S. to stop buying X, what would we have to stop buying to stop this pollution?

Stop eating any kind of factory-processed or packaged food (with plastic packaging, canned packaging, etc, as these are coated), stop using any clothing/shoes/furniture not based on natural fibers or with water-resistant or stain-resistant properties, using any sort of coated cookware (return to cast iron), etc

and that still won't do anything about commercial or industrial uses of those chemicals that contaminate your water supply/etc. Like firefighting foam, for example. The Air Force is going to keep using it regardless of what you do personally, despite them having less toxic alternatives available.

simply banning it directly wouldn't help, companies will just move on to the next thing, legally it will be presumed to be safe until there is science to prove that it's not, and we will need another 75 years of epidemiological studies to build that proof. Rinse and repeat forever.

The long term answer is that we need to reverse the legal model and have companies prove that any chemical they intend to introduce is safe, rather than the public having to (first learn what proprietary chemicals are being used, as this is not legally required to be disclosed, and then) prove that it's dangerous, but that won't happen under any conservative or liberal governments in the US, it will take a leftist government pushing heavy environmental regulations before there's any chance of phasing this sort of thing out. Until then, it's on to the next poison.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#265

Post by nate_meurer » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

clumsysmurf wrote: post #236

nate_meurer wrote: post #214

Meanwhile, these same PFAS chemicals are sprayed liberally onto the surface of clothing that we all wear, and increasingly furniture as well, and this may account for far more human PFAS consumption than drinking water. PFAS chemicals are widely used for waterproofing fabrics. The industry term is DWR -- Durable Water Repellent. The chemicals are sprayed onto the surface and simply left there to rub off on your hands…

From what I read, ingestion accounts for greater absorption than dermal exposure in populations. If your water has high levels of PFAS its best to shower in lower temperatures so you don't inhale the steam. Yes, it would be nice if REI and other companies that sells lots of these garments could apply pressure with "PFC free" filters / sections.

That may well be true, but I'm not sure it matters when your carpets, furniture, and clothing are covered with it. Eventually it will end up in your mouth and lungs, no way around it. I have a little theory that a significant portion of our physiologic PFC burden is acquired when we're babies. Babies positively swim in whatever substances are on the ground and furnishings. My other pet theory is that PFCs are contributing to the decline in sperm counts that we're seeing across the developed world:

https://web.archive.org/web/20191221153531/https://www.theat...

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#266

Post by rayiner » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

nck4222 wrote: post #85

Frost1x wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is mostly a facade anymore, unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, we haven't gone completely south to a dictatorship--there are many protections in place to keep things from falling apart but nonetheless I feel as though we're in the decline in the respect of being democratic. The underlying failed assumption in our representative democracy was that representatives would represent their constituents' interests…

>Democracy is mostly a facade in the US anyway. But I agree, the US government isn't functioning 1) as originally intended or 2) for the benefit of the majority of the people it 'represents.' Although it's worth noting that 'as the forefathers intended' carries more weight than it typically should. Their intentions were mostly based on philosophical guess work, as they didn't have a whole lot of empirical data or exi…

> But I agree, the US government isn't functioning 1) as originally intended or 2) for the benefit of the majority of the people it 'represents.'

I disagree, and I think you need to take a look at three sets of poll results to understand why. (For all the poll results, keep in mind that voters skew more conservative than the overall population.)

1) A recent Gallup poll shows that the vast majority of Americans prefer free market to government solutions: https://news.gallup.com/poll/257639/four-americans-embrace-f.... Only in two areas did more people think the government should be primarily responsible: environmental protection, and online privacy. Even for healthcare, 53% though the free market should be primarily responsible, versus 44% for the government.

2) Since 1965, Gallup polling has shown that Americans consistently list "big government" as the "biggest threat facing the country in the future." https://news.gallup.com/poll/201629/americans-big-government...

Aside from a brief dip during 9/11, a majority of the country listed "big government" as the "biggest threat" since the late 1980s. Even during the 2009 recession, "big business" peaked at 32%, and is usually around 25%. In 2012, 72% of Americans listed big government as the biggest threat, and only 21% listed big business.

3) According to a 2014 Reason-Rupe survey, the majority of millennials want a "smaller government with less services and lower taxes." https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/assets/db/140488628178.... See chart on page 47. 57% of millennials want lower taxes and less services, versus 41% who want more taxes and more services.

In short, Americans distrust government, trust businesses, and don't want to pay high taxes. That's pretty much explains why we have the government we do. Half the country (Republicans) doesn't trust the government at all, and will push back on any new government programs or taxes. Out of the other half (Democrats), you've got several factions that are only loosely connected. A large faction comprises wealthier white progressives, for whom issues like gay marriage and abortion

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#267

Post by mark-r » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

thewebcount wrote: post #262

smitty1110 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gore-tex is PTFE, also known as Teflon, which is a flurocarbon. Several of the waste products or reactants for making Teflon are in the same category as DWR products, and are basically toxic forever. There's not much you can do if you need fabrics with these properties, you just need to pick you poison.

But Teflon doesn't react with anything . That's its purpose. So even though it's a fluorocarbon, it's unlikely to cause health problem because it just won't react with your body. Or is there some other mechanism through which it causes damage, such as blocking something by physically being in the way?

Consider what happens to your immune system when it detects a foreign particle that it can't get rid of because there's no way to interact with it.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#268

Post by i_am_proteus » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

bjornjajajaja wrote: post #246

troyvit wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow I had no idea. Here's a link that talks about makers of outdoor gear and their relationship with DWR. http://www.detox-outdoor.org/ It doesn't look like there is a lot of choice. Maybe I'll just stay wet :)

Honestly people have “stayed wet“ for centuries without chemicals. We’ve hung our clothes to dry instead of using machines too. Lots of apparel products are highly overrated. And those water resistant coatings just come off anyway. I think the best thing to do is go on a hike near a river with a dog, and watch how the dog marches through the water unwaveringly even when it’s cold!

There's also waxed cotton and oilskin. Some maintenance required, but they work.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#269

Post by GcVmvNhBsU » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #249

papito wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I've always scoffed at the Socialist paradise of Western Europe, but I've changed my mind after traveling to Denmark a few months ago. The government employs a lot of people, and they seem to make sure that they themselves work for the public good. The public . You know, people who all live in the country. Everything is clean and the trains are on time. Let's not bundle everyone under "Democracy". Our s…

Why should we have to force socialize people in a context of killing others? We force socialize people in plenty of other contexts like 12 years of schooling, most of which is mandatory. That hasn't gotten people to play in a team. Why would six weeks be any different? The only thing that will come out of mandatory boot camp is resentment and hate towards the government, institutions, and people that demand it. My pa…

I’d argue that 12 years of schooling does get people to play as a team, it’s just that the team is smaller and more local. If I grow up in a smallish town in South Dakota I will go to school with and know people who mostly look like me. I won’t meet someone from a big coastal city and get to learn their worldview and how it was shaped. I won’t (probably) experience what it feels like to be in a minority role (as in race, political belief, etc). I will, however, grow up with people and maintain longer relationships with them. I will vote and act in the interest of my community’s shared beliefs.

I also think there are other intangible benefits to conscripted service aside from exposing people to a wide diversity of their country. We were able to end the Vietnam war because we had a draft. We’ve been at war with terror for 19 years with no end in sight. Too few families are affected now and the nation doesn’t have the will to stop this forever war.

I do generally agree that socializing in the context of killing people is probably not ideal. That said, a very small part of the military actually kills people. The vast majority of the military is either in a support role, or do not find themselves in a situation where they actually need to kill someone. So, I want to discount your first paragraph a bit. That said, I support the idea of a 2 year mandatory service which unlocks benefits like tuition (university, trade, etc). I don’t think that service needs to only be military - I would happily revive the Civilian Conservation Corps, use the Peace Corps, etc to fulfill that service.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#270

Post by the8472 » Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #75

Frost1x wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is mostly a facade anymore, unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, we haven't gone completely south to a dictatorship--there are many protections in place to keep things from falling apart but nonetheless I feel as though we're in the decline in the respect of being democratic. The underlying failed assumption in our representative democracy was that representatives would represent their constituents' interests…

I think democracy was always problematic. Its original form, direct democracy, was vulnerable to the tyranny of the masses. Representative democracy, long described as the solution, really isn’t. Representatives are self-interested, just like everyone else, and so we cannot expect them to be purely faithful executors of their respective mandates. What we did not expect, and perhaps are now beginning to, is that human…

> What we did not expect, and perhaps are now beginning to, is that human beings are endlessly resourceful when personally motivated. Laws, norms, and institutions are static structures, simple obstacles for people to overcome when they really want to.

I wonder whether the staffers of politicians engage in game theoretic modeling, have red teams etc. to try to anticipate these kinds of exploits.