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U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#221

A reminder that you can remove these and many other contaminants from your water with a simple undersink RO filter. They are quite inexpensive and start at about $160 on Amazon for a lifetime of clean drinking and cooking water. https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/list-of-household-filters-appr...

I've heard this also removes many essential minerals that we get from water?

Yes, googling "reverse osmosis demineralized water" provides many options to add minerals back in.

The WHO stated that demineralized water is unsuitable for long term drinking due to the lack of minerals.

Not sure how significant this is or how many minerals you can get from diet instead of water.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think democracy was always problematic. Its original form, direct democracy, was vulnerable to the tyranny of the masses. Who deemed that a problem? The elites wanting specific decisions out of the masses.

I'm pretty sure the Jews have something valuable to say about tyranny of the masses.

Exactly the opposite!

For one, Germany too had a representative system and elites governing. So what happened there wasn't some issue with "direct democracy" and tyrannical masses that a representative democracy would stop.

Second, even within Germany's non-direct-democracy system, the masses last voted for the various parties in 1933 in iirc, the Holocaust started much later, almost 8 years later. In fact, masses wise, Hitler didn't even democratically won 1933 elections. The last time the public had a chance to say anything, was a referendum in 1938, which wasn't on that matter at all (and which result was tampered by the party anyway -- there was "widespread intimidation of voters").

Hitler's Germany is hardly a case against direct democracy and the "tyranny of the masses". If anything, if people voted directly, Hitler might not have even gotten in power -- and his actions would be much more controlled and constrain, as in a direct democracy (ancient Athenian style) people decide for all matters, and can vote someone out of office at anytime, they don't give a blank check to some "representative".

And of course, the same horrible crimes could happen in the total opposite of a direct democracy, a downright dictatorship. And indeed, they did in Stalinist USSR or Maoist China.

So, thus far, we've ruled out representative democracy (Hitler), and dictatorship (Stalin).

Maybe direct democracy looks better now?

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think democracy was always problematic. Its original form, direct democracy, was vulnerable to the tyranny of the masses. Who deemed that a problem? The elites wanting specific decisions out of the masses.

Or vulnerable minorities who make nice scapegoats. See Indonesia, Malaysia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, etc… Surely you could have figured this one out?

All those countries had either dictatorships or representative democracies, and masses that give representative a "blank cheque" to do as they please for N years, and where elites lord over those people.

The very opposite of a direct democracy.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#224

It is constantly amazing to me that "cover up the existence of poisonous chemicals in your drinking water" is a viable position for a democratically-elected officeholder to have. What a world we live in.

Maintaining the status quo is an incredibly valuable position for democratically elected politicians to have. Joe Biden’s entire campaign is built on “I won’t change anything except spruce up the ACA a bit.”

Representative democracy involves various groups focusing attention on one issue or the other. When it comes to things like drinking water or food, people’s fear of “impure” food can cause public panic vastly out of proportion to the actual problem. Nobody is thinking “hmm, would I give up stain resistant carpets and clothing and non-stick pans for a negligible lower risk of getting testicular cancer?”

PFAS are, at this point, a cause for study, not a cause for dramatic action: https://www.consumerreports.org/toxic-chemicals-substances/p...

The two most studied, PFOA and PFOS are no longer produced in the US. The others are not well studied:

> But the health effects of the PFAS chemicals used instead of PFOS and PFOA are less known. As these newer chemicals accumulate in the drinking water in some areas of the U.S., scientists and state officials are trying to determine how they affect humans. At least some of them can be eliminated from the body more quickly than PFOS and PFOA and may be less toxic, according to DeWitt—but they still might cause problems, she cautions.

PFAS chemicals have been in wide use since the 1950s. Clearly they are reasonably safe. The question is whether the potential health benefits of reducing their use outweigh the cost of losing their advantages.

Here, there was no “cover up.” Nobody was hiding the measurements of the levels of PFAS in water systems. The question was whether the DHHS should issue a guideline that would set the PFAS target at a level 1/10th as high as what is present in many public water systems is not something that necessarily should happen. After all, how are they deriving that guideline? When you have exposure dependent chemicals, you can’t set the limits at the lowest levels where no harmful effects are detectable. (Remember how everything in California has a cancer warning?) There needs to be a global optimization process that balances benefits and costs. In that context, it was entirely reasonable and proper to refrain from setting such a guideline at this time.

(PFAS are just one example of things that trigger a panic completely out of proportion to actual risk. Another example is alcohol during pregnancy. The medical community in the US has taken the position, with the support of the government, that the only acceptable level is 0. That is even though women in Western Europe routinely drink moderate amounts of alcohol during pregnancy, with seemingly little ill effect.)

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#225

Meanwhile, these same PFAS chemicals are sprayed liberally onto the surface of clothing that we all wear, and increasingly furniture as well, and this may account for far more human PFAS consumption than drinking water. PFAS chemicals are widely used for waterproofing fabrics. The industry term is DWR -- Durable Water Repellent. The chemicals are sprayed onto the surface and simply left there to rub off on your hands…

Wow I had no idea.

Here's a link that talks about makers of outdoor gear and their relationship with DWR. http://www.detox-outdoor.org/

It doesn't look like there is a lot of choice. Maybe I'll just stay wet :)

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#226
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is more alive today than it ever has been in history. What you are seeing is democracy. I think in the west we've been taught that 'democracy' is by definition good, and therefore anything bad is 'not democracy'. But the reality is that people are voting for this.

I don't agree. There are many different ways to implement a democracy. The choices aren't "democracy as it currently exists in the US" and "authoritarianism/monarchy/oligarchy/everything else". I also don't think people are voting for the current political architecture, or would be capable of voting for any other.

I didn't say that it was the only way to do it. What I said is that the US is currently more democratic than it ever has been. Obama, and later Trump, are the most truly democratic presidents we've ever had. They were chosen by the people, without regard to the traditional elite process that more or less determines the nominee.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#227
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is more alive today than it ever has been in history. What you are seeing is democracy. I think in the west we've been taught that 'democracy' is by definition good, and therefore anything bad is 'not democracy'. But the reality is that people are voting for this.

Well, no, actually, people aren't voting for this. Many people aren't voting at all, because they're excluded based on felony convictions, inability to meet paperwork requirements for voter IDs, etc. Gerrymandering is extremely effective. The electoral college isn't intentional gerrymandering, but it has the same effect as gerrymandering: two of the last three presidents lost the popular vote. And where it's intentio…

> Many people aren't voting at all

Choosing not to vote is a vote.

> because they're excluded based on felony convictions, inability to meet paperwork requirements for voter IDs, etc.

Felony disenfranchisement hardly contradicts my point. And anyway, voter suppression and felony disenfranchisement are at all time lows historically, so my point stands just fine.

> Gerrymandering is extremely effective. The electoral college isn't intentional gerrymandering, but it has the same effect as gerrymandering: two of the last three presidents lost the popular vote. And where it's intentional, it's even more effective. In North Carolina, Republicans won 77% of congressional seats with just over 50% of the popular vote in 2018. In Ohio, Republicans won 75% of congressional seats with 52% of the popular vote in 2018.

Sure. My point isn't that our democracy is perfectly implemented. My point is that its current incarnation is its most democratic yet. Until Obama, candidates were basically selected by the fiat of elite groups. Obama, and then Trump, up-ended that system, making our democracy more democratic than it ever has been. For better or worse.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#229
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is more alive today than it ever has been in history. What you are seeing is democracy. I think in the west we've been taught that 'democracy' is by definition good, and therefore anything bad is 'not democracy'. But the reality is that people are voting for this.

I get what you mean in the larger sense, but here that would suggest there are masses of people who voted for poisoned water, which no one would do. You can certainly argue the polarization of US/ democratic politics in the time of the Internet has led to one side adopting a nihilism where they would prefer to die living "The way things were" than accept inclusive change. And yes, I am definitely biased.

> I get what you mean in the larger sense, but here that would suggest there are masses of people who voted for poisoned water, which no one would do.

It may also suggest that they see things differently than you do, and don't believe that they have voted for poisoned water.

> You can certainly argue the polarization of US/ democratic politics in the time of the Internet has led to one side adopting a nihilism where they would prefer to die living "The way things were" than accept inclusive change.

I think that's an extremely reductionist, and honestly objectively false characterization of what's happened. And it is that very perspective that has caused them to do this in the first place. These people had real and genuine concerns that were not being addressed by anyone other than Trump.

Globalization hollowed out the middle of the country for the benefit of the coasts. This has been more or less the explicit economic agenda of the last 30 years. We can certainly debate whether this has been a net positive for the world, but there is no debate that it has been a net negative for the middle states in the US that voted overwhelmingly for Trump.

Re: U.S. drinking water widely contaminated with 'forever chemicals': report

#230
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is more alive today than it ever has been in history. What you are seeing is democracy. I think in the west we've been taught that 'democracy' is by definition good, and therefore anything bad is 'not democracy'. But the reality is that people are voting for this.

The original democracy was actually designed to appoint random representatives. What we are seeing is not democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

Because we aren't selecting random people from a district, we aren't a democracy? That seems like a strange opinion to have, especially since the definition of democracy is fairly vague, covering basically any system where the people have the authority over their government. And I'd say electing Obama and then Trump, over the screaming temper tantrums of the two separate parties, is good evidence the people still hold authority.
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