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Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

reuters.com

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Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have not changed the subject. You started this thread by responding to somebody discussing the Chinese government's access to all iCloud data, but you changed the subject to talk about systems where the private key is on device, which does not apply to iCloud. You absolutely did change the subject. > Those same standards apply in the US and China - unless you have evidence otherwise. Those same standards don't ac…

You started this thread by responding to somebody discussing the Chinese government's access to all iCloud data If some of the data is e2e encrypted using private keys,China doesn’t have access to “all data” Those same standards don't actually protect your data from whoever controls the iCloud server or whoever controls the iMessage key server. If the private key is generated by the same entity or “key server” that g…

> If some of the data is e2e encrypted using private keys,China doesn’t have access to “all data”

You have two mistakes in this sentence.

1. None of the iCloud data (mail, docs, drive, etc.) is E2E encrypted. Some of the data stored in iCloud (like keychain backups) is encrypted prior to being sent to iCloud (using symmetric encryption, not with asymmetric key pairs). China has access to the data that was ultimately sent to iCloud.

2. The way Apple implements E2E encryption for services like iMessage that are E2E encrypted allows China access to that data.

> If the private key is generated by the same entity or “key server” that generates the public key, and then transmitted to the client.

That's the point. Since Apple's implementation relies on a key server to distribute public keys, it is straightforward for the key server to generate its own key pair and serve a fraudulent public key to the recipient, decrypting and re-encrypting messages that the iMessage servers relay. Apple relies on the technical illiteracy of its users to get away with its deceptive and often plain false marketing claims. Now you know better.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#592
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can specifically turn off iCloud for iMessages in settings....

Maybe the fraction of users who do that is small enough that China won't push them on it. Or (this would be relatively easy to check) they could just hide that option in settings when the device region is China. Another factor to consider is that SMS and iMessage are rarely used in China due to SMS historically being more expensive than email/data over there.

That brings up another point. How important is iMessage in China? The iPhone’s market share in China is small and statistically when you’re using iMessage you would probably be sending a message to a none Apple device over unencrypted SMS.

Email is the least secure method of sending data and always has been.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#593
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After looking at a few alternatives (Borg, Duplicacy etc.), I setup Arq on my Mac yesterday. One thing that irks me about these solutions is that they seem to scan my folders each time they want to backup. Are there tools that are smarter about this? For e.g., while running, they could keep a log of what's changing and only scan those while backing up.

You would probably need the kernel / filesystem to keep track of it to keep it efficient. And even then that is iffy if you implement it as a kernel extension vs. something integrated into filesystem code. I've found arq backup overall slow once you start hitting 0.5TB overall. It's a design issue.

> You would probably need the kernel / filesystem to keep track of it to keep it efficient

I believe most operating systems have a mechanism for this. E.g. on macOS it's called fsevents, Linux has inotify

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#594
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can specifically turn off iCloud for iMessages in settings....

Maybe the fraction of users who do that is small enough that China won't push them on it. Or (this would be relatively easy to check) they could just hide that option in settings when the device region is China. Another factor to consider is that SMS and iMessage are rarely used in China due to SMS historically being more expensive than email/data over there.

That brings up another point. How important is iMessage in China? The iPhone’s market share in China is small and statistically when you’re using iMessage you would probably be sending a message to a none Apple device over unencrypted SMS.

Email is the least secure method of sending data and always has been.

I’ve never paid attention to it until now, but you can selectively disable iCloud backups for any of the built in apps and third party apps in settings.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#595

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no…

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously…

It's one thing for them to not encrypt the backups, its another thing to go out of their way to include the iMessage private key in the backup, which completely undermines iMessage E2E for 99% of users.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously…

>Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. iCloud backups are definitely encrypted. They just aren't end-to-end encrypted. That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web bro…

Can you explain how this works? I'm assuming my IPhone itself is encrypted with my own password (or thumbprint) and that Apple could absolutely not get into it without that thumbprint.

But when you send a backup, it's decrypted, sent to Apple, and then re-encrypted with a key that Apple controls, and has nothing to do with any of the "things I personally know"? IOW, I couldn't myself decrypt my Apple backup stored on their servers?

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#597
post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If backups aren't encrypted, then neither is your device

You can back them up locally.

But you can't do so automatically. You have to open iTunes (or Finder) and explicitly click a button.

If Apple is privacy-oriented, they should've allowed this long time ago. Unlike iCloud backups, this is certainly not a legal issue, as the "local" backups stored on one's computer are already fully encrypted.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. iCloud backups are definitely encrypted. They just aren't end-to-end encrypted. That should have been plainly obvious to any technically knowledgeable user because you don't lose your data forever when you forget your Apple ID password. Or the fact that you can see your photos through a web bro…

Can you explain how this works? I'm assuming my IPhone itself is encrypted with my own password (or thumbprint) and that Apple could absolutely not get into it without that thumbprint. But when you send a backup, it's decrypted, sent to Apple, and then re-encrypted with a key that Apple controls, and has nothing to do with any of the "things I personally know"? IOW, I couldn't myself decrypt my Apple backup stored on…

Apple can't comply with a law enforcement request to get into your iPhone. They can comply with anything in your iCloud Backup except for the things under End-to-end encrypted data on this page [1]. Backups are encrypted "in transit" and "at rest", but Apple retains a key. That's how they can comply with legal requests and how you can restore your data if you forget your password.

[1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously…

> Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement [...] No, they do not. If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. Don't apologize for them making this user-hostile choice. We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. We can't afford to keep ceding ground on privacy. We have to eng…

>If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first.

"or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption."

By not making iCloud backups end-to-end encrypted, they likely did exactly that.

Although I'd find it funny if by doing so they caused a backlash from governments with new laws that ruined encryption for everybody. It'd be dystopian but also funny.

Re: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously…

> Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement [...] No, they do not. If Apple wants a reputation for privacy and respecting its customers, then it has to put them first. Don't apologize for them making this user-hostile choice. We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit. We can't afford to keep ceding ground on privacy. We have to eng…

> We could be merely a generation away from the hell hole that is social credit.

I fear we have one foot there already. If you are so inclined, you can dig up a lot of dox on most people, all freely given to social media, or via scrapers like Spokeo.

I guess it's all still optional, kinda. And there is no centralized clearinghouse. But it is scary.

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