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Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

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Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#91

Post by bugsy »

ajays wrote: post #86
bugsy wrote: post #67

I worked for a company that not only had this clause, but it extended to any and all inventions pertaining to the employers line of business for 12 months after employment terminated. When employment terminated and I intended to go work for a competitor, I was given a letter explaining that the business of my employer was "software and hardware" and was told verbally they would aggressively pursue that claim. The als…

Can you please name the employer so the rest of us can avoid them? Thanks!

They don't exist anymore! It may appeal to your Schadenfreude to know that shortly after this they went bankrupt - because I wasn't there and so they couldn't complete contracts and got sued into oblivion by their clients.

I guess I'll mention the basic problem was I had a contract with them licensing one of my patents to them when I went to work there. They then told me they wanted me to transfer complete ownership of my patent to them when it became an issue that they wanted to license it to another company, which my license did not allow (non-transferable) and they didn't want to pay for. I said no, and so they fired me, but told me if I gave them the patent I could come back to work - blackmail!

The other company then wanted to hire me and deal with me directly, and that's when my former employer launched legal proceedings and sabotaged my new job offer.

That is when I found out that a qualified and experienced IP attorney who knows the law costs a lot more ($600/hr) than a regular family attorney ($100/hr). My attorneys were top guys nationally and were very clear that the company had absolutely no case whatsoever on any of their claims.

It soon became apparent though that the company attorney was scheduling meetings with my attorneys solely for the purpose of bleeding me dry. For example, company attorney would demand to meet with multiple members of my firm to discuss things, and then talk slow, fumble with papers and act stupid, at a cost of $2400/hr to me because there were 4 attorneys there. My attorneys told me straight up that that was what the deal was and they called the company on their BS but the company kept trying these tactics. Eventually the company got buried in their own bad karma and gave up, but it still cost me a fortune to deal with and stole a year from my life and caused incredible stress and dismay. Lesson learned was that it simply does not matter that the law is on your side and the other people don't have a case if they are acting in bad faith.

The good part was that I came out of it a lot wiser and since then I absolutely will not deal with any company that insists I agree to terms I don't feel are completely fair. That decision is still the right one, decades later, and completely changed the amount of BS I was dealing with in jobs. Any one who feels uncomfortable with any clause should not agree to it and be firm. If you have talent, you will find work for reasonable people and that work will be better paid and less stress than dealing with the jerks.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#92

Post by bigiain »

kjhghjkjh wrote: post #82
bigiain wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure Oracle is a good example of a company that makes you agree that they own everything you think of while employed by them. A friend of mine became an Oracle employee when the company he worked for got acquired, and ended up needing to get approval from a long way up the org chart to be able to continue doing his phd, since the university had existing claims on ip in his phd research. For quite a long ti…

It's not oracle specificaly it's that if you are say a structural ironworker during the day and make bronze sculptures as a hobby then a judge will understand they are different. But they might not understand that being a sysadmin is as different to being a web designer in the evening.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

As I understand it, Oracle's standard employment agreement includes language saying you agree that Oracle owns every idea you have while employed by them, whether on "paid hours" or not, whether related to databases or software in general or not - if you're a database engineer for Oracle and you invent a better tap washer, Oracle seem to think they'll own your plumbing related invention. There's workarounds for at least limited exceptions to that standard rule, but it's apparently unusual and required signoff at many levels above the typical workers management.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#93

Post by xsmasher »

When handed one of these, put it in your desk. Same with second and third copy. If they ask for it before hire, say you need time to read it.

If that fails, write an addendum that neuters the document. "Nothing in this agreement precludes posting online, writing, blogging, coding, or contributions to open source software provided that no code or technology specific to company XYZ is disclosed." Most employers won't pay their lawyer to review your addendum and bang, you have your rights back.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#94

Post by mkramlich »

modoc wrote: post #11

In general you should avoid signing the standard contracts at any job. I've always made changes to protect my after-hours work, and they've been okayed every single time.

I'm getting to the point where i don't want to sign any contracts with any future employer or client. At least, nothing but the bare minimum needed. NDA's, for example, increasingly look to me as a joke and more trouble than they're worth.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#95

Post by random42 »

kleinsch wrote: post #20
tptacek wrote: post #2

Very often, yes. The boilerplate IP contracts provided by most law firms usually claims one of: * All software development work you ever do while employed by the company. * All software development work you do using in any way any resource of the company, from computer to network connection. * All software development work you do related to the business of the company that employs you. * All software development work…

Even if your company doesn't sue you immediately, the fact that the intellectual property might be of questionable ownership can also mess up fundings or acquisitions down the road. If a company is looking to buy you and realizes that there's a chance of BigCorp claiming ownership of some piece of your IP because you signed a bad employment contract, it's going to be one more reason for them to say no to the deal.

... or, at-least to reduce the acquisition price and/or put money in the escrow.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#96

Post by [deleted] »

grellas wrote: post #63

A few thoughts on this: 1. I have done transactional work and litigation in and about these areas for nearly 30 years in Silicon Valley. Based on that experience, in practical terms, the risk you deal with in doing side work boils down to this: it is rare that an employer will make a claim to IP you develop on your own time and using your own resources but, when it does happen, its effect is pretty horrific. 2. Calif…

[deleted]

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#97

Post by chegra »

grellas wrote: post #81
nostrademons wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If what you are planning to do has commercial value, then make sure to get it checked by a good local lawyer who can guide you through the pitfalls and explain alternatives." Is being no-longer-employed by your employer an absolute defense, assuming that you can prove that any IP in question was created after the end of your employment? I'm thinking of the case where an employee does something that's either not of c…

An employer can easily find grounds to chase you for your strictly post-employment work if it can argue that such work misappropriates its proprietary rights (usually but not necessarily trade secret), whether or not the work you originally did for the employer had commercial value at the time you first did it. Starting with a from-scratch codebase may or may not offer you a shield but likely not - this is because th…

(sidenote) http://www.grellas.com/acquisitions.html "We are sophisticated enough to help buyers and sellers in such deals valued at many millions of dollars and flexible ENOUGHT to provide cost-effective help for small business deals as well."

The copy on your site needs correcting.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#98

Post by updog »

Philbrick wrote: post #15

Google, my employer, recently refused a request that I made to release as open source some software that I had been working on in my spare time and without using any of their resources, on they claim that my software would compete with one of their projects. :-(

You should have told them not to be evil.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#99

Post by updog »

modoc wrote: post #11

In general you should avoid signing the standard contracts at any job. I've always made changes to protect my after-hours work, and they've been okayed every single time.

Have you worked at any large companies and had success with that? I'm used to dealing with people who don't know who wrote the agreement, have given it to thousands of others "without a problem", and treat me like I am a bit odd for actually reading it, let alone trying to change something.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#100

Post by glenjamin »

RiderOfGiraffes wrote: post #9

IANAL, but in the UK, unless you have a contract that specifically says otherwise, yes. On the other hand, if the outside work provably used no employer resources, and provably is unrelated, then you can probably defend yourself against an action. But you really, really don't want to depend on that. Get it sorted up front. Get an explicit agreement with your employer that non-competing work done without their resourc…

I'm, in the UK. My employment contract is quite specific on these things.

The company owns any IP I produce, and I'm forbidden from working on side projects... without permission from my manager. So given permission (in writing) to start a project, it'd then be all mine.

Agreeing these sorts of things prior to spending time/money on your own stuff should avoid most of these legal haggles.

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