Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

answers.onstartups.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 120 posts

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#81

Post by grellas »

nostrademons wrote: post #71
grellas wrote: post #63

A few thoughts on this: 1. I have done transactional work and litigation in and about these areas for nearly 30 years in Silicon Valley. Based on that experience, in practical terms, the risk you deal with in doing side work boils down to this: it is rare that an employer will make a claim to IP you develop on your own time and using your own resources but, when it does happen, its effect is pretty horrific. 2. Calif…

"If what you are planning to do has commercial value, then make sure to get it checked by a good local lawyer who can guide you through the pitfalls and explain alternatives." Is being no-longer-employed by your employer an absolute defense, assuming that you can prove that any IP in question was created after the end of your employment? I'm thinking of the case where an employee does something that's either not of c…

An employer can easily find grounds to chase you for your strictly post-employment work if it can argue that such work misappropriates its proprietary rights (usually but not necessarily trade secret), whether or not the work you originally did for the employer had commercial value at the time you first did it. Starting with a from-scratch codebase may or may not offer you a shield but likely not - this is because the concept of "trade secrets" is much broader than the code itself and a former employer can (normally) easily argue that you are gaining an unfair competitive advantage from your superior knowledge of the confidential information relating to its proprietary product and that you would be misusing such knowledge (which, by law, belongs to the employer exclusively) in using it to do an allegedly independent implementation. The employer might find it hard to win such a case but this would not stop them from making your life hell for several years as you try to defend yourself from such an assault.

Short answer: there is no absolute defense in the fact of your no longer being employed when you do the allegedly offending activity.

BTW, I don't know enough about the Andreessen or Google examples to comment intelligently on the specifics there.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#82

Post by kjhghjkjh »

bigiain wrote: post #74
kjhghjkjh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that you aren't trying to convince a bunch of HN readers - you are trying to convince a judge (who thinks computers are magic boxes) If your day job is Oracle DBA and your startup is iPhone apps or web design that still equals the same "computer stuff" to a judge.

I'm pretty sure Oracle is a good example of a company that makes you agree that they own everything you think of while employed by them. A friend of mine became an Oracle employee when the company he worked for got acquired, and ended up needing to get approval from a long way up the org chart to be able to continue doing his phd, since the university had existing claims on ip in his phd research. For quite a long ti…

It's not oracle specificaly it's that if you are say a structural ironworker during the day and make bronze sculptures as a hobby then a judge will understand they are different.

But they might not understand that being a sysadmin is as different to being a web designer in the evening.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#84

Post by bugsy »

btilly wrote: post #73
bugsy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a citation for your statement that "what you do in your spare time" is not owned by you in New York?

My reference was what I was informed was the law by multiple lawyers when I lived in New York. It is possible that I misunderstood or the rules have changed in the last decade, but I am pretty sure neither is the case. Still you should confirm this with a qualified attorney before accepting what I say as being absolutely true. More precisely I was told that New York recognizes 3 types of employee relationships. They…

Thanks for the detailed reply. I found a post from 2002 with a similar citation regarding NY's classes of employees: http://www.perlmonks.org/?displaytype=print;node_id=153046

He doesn't explicitly state if his open source work was entirely done on his own time and equipment or done during down time at work or such, but it might be the case in his post there.

It's strange. As you probably know, the work for hire exception to copyright comes from the 1976 Federal Copyright Act. It doesn't extend to times when you are not at work, or have a 24/7 idea for professionals. It's also the case that nearly every state has hourly, contract and salary/overtime exempt employment categories, yet no other states I know of extend work for hire to off hours in the absence of a contract. If this doctrine can indeed be found in NY State Law, it would seem to be a state regulating something that only Congress has a right to regulate, which is copyright law (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8).

It would be really interesting to see the text of the NY state law on this, maybe I'll be able to find it some time.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#86

Post by ajays »

bugsy wrote: post #67

I worked for a company that not only had this clause, but it extended to any and all inventions pertaining to the employers line of business for 12 months after employment terminated. When employment terminated and I intended to go work for a competitor, I was given a letter explaining that the business of my employer was "software and hardware" and was told verbally they would aggressively pursue that claim. The als…

Can you please name the employer so the rest of us can avoid them? Thanks!

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#87

Post by alok-g »

wallflower wrote: post #69

As a condition of employment, back when I didn't know any better, I signed the All-your-IP-belong-to-us contract. I tried digging through my archives at my parent's house last year to try to find it but couldn't. I'm not sure I want to bring it up with my boss and Legal (red flagged). Then again, maybe I want to be the nail that sticks out and doesn't get hammered down. Now that I am doing substantial freelance and c…

I requested a copy of my contract from HR (without even going to my boss) and they provided me information on how to access a copy of it on our internal website.

I was worrying about being red-flagged just like you. But a lawyer told me that I should not be worried about this at all, and should just politely tell them something like, "I am missing copy of so-and-so contract from my file, can I get a copy." It proved to be even easier in my case.

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#88

Post by btilly »

bugsy wrote: post #84
btilly wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reference was what I was informed was the law by multiple lawyers when I lived in New York. It is possible that I misunderstood or the rules have changed in the last decade, but I am pretty sure neither is the case. Still you should confirm this with a qualified attorney before accepting what I say as being absolutely true. More precisely I was told that New York recognizes 3 types of employee relationships. They…

Thanks for the detailed reply. I found a post from 2002 with a similar citation regarding NY's classes of employees: http://www.perlmonks.org/?displaytype=print;node_id=153046 He doesn't explicitly state if his open source work was entirely done on his own time and equipment or done during down time at work or such, but it might be the case in his post there. It's strange. As you probably know, the work for hire exce…

AHEM

I am intimately familiar with that case. :-)

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#89

Post by alok-g »

alok-g wrote: post #44
daimyoyo wrote: post #28

I'm in sales and in my spare time I am creating a program for online data management(which will also create leads although they're B2B and my company does B2C). Can I use the "not work related" exemption or should I renegotiate my employment agreement? I work in Nevada. Thank you for any help you can give me.

PS: I am not a lawyer, although have done extensive online research on these issues. 1. "Not work related" gives you an incomplete picture (not related to who's work?). That it is not related to your work is not enough. It must not be related to the employer's line of work, or anticipated line of work. Even if one person in the company is working on a related item, the your work may belong to the company. Even if one…

Correction: "and I am guessing that McDonald's would NOT make you sign an employment agreement for these issues"

Re: Does my company have IP rights to the stuff I do in my spare time?

#90

Post by bugsy »

btilly wrote: post #88
bugsy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I found a post from 2002 with a similar citation regarding NY's classes of employees: http://www.perlmonks.org/?displaytype=print;node_id=153046 He doesn't explicitly state if his open source work was entirely done on his own time and equipment or done during down time at work or such, but it might be the case in his post there. It's strange. As you probably know, the work for hire exce…

AHEM I am intimately familiar with that case. :-)

Ah, OK, I should have noticed! Thanks.
Post reply on HN