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How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

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Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#31

Post by incompatible »

dole wrote: post #28
incompatible wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, and also to the others who replied. It seems a bit crazy that anybody would try that given that sooner or later somebody would surely figure out what was going on.

Electronically speaking, it’s worth noting there’s a current rumor and image hunt going on on Twitter of the Astros possibly using “buzzers”, small radio—activated vibrating devices taped to the body, to steal signs back around when this was going on in 2017. As has been said, teams have been stealing signs since the beginning of the sport and it’s an understood or “gentleman’s” rule that it’s acceptable — as long no…

That seems a bit less detectable than the trash can method. Why the technological regression?

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#32

Post by mroche »

dole wrote: post #30
mroche wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points, according to the article (unless I misread something): They were hopping off the center field feed. This is the feed that viewers at home see when a pitch is thrown. If someone spent the time at home, you could catalog all the signs between a pitcher and a catcher just fine. They were looking for offspeed pitches, i.e changeups. This is a pitch used to fake out a batter through a speed change. Most standa…

The Astros also adjusted the placement and angle of that center field feed in order to get a better unobstructed view of the catcher’s signs around that time as well. Before and after images showing the difference of position from what was supposed to be the same camera and how much better the view was.

Interesting. Wasn’t mentioned in the article but I’ll take your word for it. I mistook your original statement to mean they had a second camera in that position. My sibling is a more enthusiastic sports fan (though baseball was the one sport I actually played) than me, so I’ve been getting most of my info from them. This is the first writeup on the matter I’ve gone through.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#33

Post by dole »

incompatible wrote: post #31
dole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronically speaking, it’s worth noting there’s a current rumor and image hunt going on on Twitter of the Astros possibly using “buzzers”, small radio—activated vibrating devices taped to the body, to steal signs back around when this was going on in 2017. As has been said, teams have been stealing signs since the beginning of the sport and it’s an understood or “gentleman’s” rule that it’s acceptable — as long no…

That seems a bit less detectable than the trash can method. Why the technological regression?

From the recent pictures, there’s a faint outline of what looks like a “wire” taped to the right shoulder of Jose Altuve, that you can see through his jersey. Whether it’s an actual buzzer, an unfortunate crease or something else, is what’s under speculation.

I think they went with the trash can banging because it was somewhat low tech, and maybe less likely or believable for people to pick up on.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#35

Post by daseiner1 »

freehunter wrote: post #29
SubiculumCode wrote: post #12

I will just say this. I am a Dodgers fan and Houston's cheating may well have ruined Kershaw's legacy, one of the best pitchers to have ever lived and played baseball. Shame shame Shame.

Similar for me as a Detroit fan with Justin Verlander. Half of me is glad to see his World Series win wasn’t revoked, but the other half says he was party to the cheating and should have been punished. But the shame is he’s one of the best pitchers in the game without cheating... why did he do it? Shame indeed.

Well, yours is the converse, no? Kershaw lost in part to Houston's sign-stealing, Verlander won.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#36

Post by anigbrowl »

remote_phone wrote: post #7

I’m waiting for machine learning to predict play calls for baseball and football. It shouldn’t be too hard if it hasn’t already been done. Based on the offensive coordinator and things like field position, etc it should be easy to make predictions as to what that human would make based on past choices. I wonder if that would be considered cheating though If they only used past performance and not real time signal ste…

Why not just use a cannon to shoot the ball?

Ideas like yours take all the fun out of play and ruin it for everyone else. We all know we can build machines to do things better than humans, but so what? It's the uncertainty and imperfection and second guessing that makes a game enjoyable to watch or play in the first place.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#37

Post by astura »

incompatible wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated, how do you steal signs by making a banging noise? What is a "sign", anyway? What electronics are involved? The article doesn't explain anything.

The catcher needs to know what sort of pitch the pitcher will throw so he can set up correctly to catch the pitch. To make sure catcher and pitcher are on the same page, each pitch starts with the catcher giving hand signals to the pitcher to suggest he throws a specific type of pitch. These hand signals are what is meant by "signs."

An opposing team can "steal signs" by looking at the catcher while he's giving his signs and then somehow relay that information to the batter. That way the batter knows what type of pitch is coming. Usually the information is given to the batter by some other type of signal, that's what "banging on the garbage can" was, a signal that a specific type of pitch was coming. (In this case they were signaling if a pitch was going to be an offspeed pitch)

So basically what happened was Astros set up a camera in the outfield aimed at the opposing team's catcher. The catcher would signal for, for example, a breaking ball. Astros employee viewing video feed would see this and then bang on the garbage can to indicate to the batter that the pitch would be offspeed.

It's important to know that "stealing signs" the old fashioned way (without cameras/technology) is legal and part of the game. This is why catchers will give multiple signs when runners are on base, because base runners may be able to look at the catcher while he's giving his signs and relay information to the batter. When the catcher is using multiple signs there's an agreement beforehand between the catcher and the pitcher which of the multiple signs is the "real" sign.

There's a Wikipedia page on sign stealing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_stealing

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#38

Post by akiselev »

anigbrowl wrote: post #36
remote_phone wrote: post #7

I’m waiting for machine learning to predict play calls for baseball and football. It shouldn’t be too hard if it hasn’t already been done. Based on the offensive coordinator and things like field position, etc it should be easy to make predictions as to what that human would make based on past choices. I wonder if that would be considered cheating though If they only used past performance and not real time signal ste…

Why not just use a cannon to shoot the ball? Ideas like yours take all the fun out of play and ruin it for everyone else. We all know we can build machines to do things better than humans, but so what? It's the uncertainty and imperfection and second guessing that makes a game enjoyable to watch or play in the first place.

There's a lot of money and ego at stake in sports world. Enjoyment is a very distant concern.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#39

Post by OldHand2018 »

interestica wrote: post #4
wyxuan wrote: post #3

I think the best part about the whole thing is that there are so many memes accompanying the investigation. I'm not sure however, that the internet really helped crack the case. Th article shows that the internet came to similar conclusions as the real MLB investigation.

I'm fascinated by the shift in internet culture to allow this. In the early 2010s MLB would have done their best to remove unauthorized clips from the web. It would have always been done as 'copyright violation'. But, the shift democratizes the content itself - and makes it available for critique/analysis/comedy.

Baseball Savant [1] might just blow your mind. It is far and away the best stats/data site provided by a pro sports league, likely anywhere on Earth. The search page offers about 40 ways to narrow a search, and once you've found what you are looking for it can generate a dozen or two different charts and graphics. On many of them, any circle representing a pitch is a clickable link that brings up the TV video of that pitch. You really like the data you found? No problem, there's a button to download it in CSV format, with about 95 columns of data for each pitch. Do whatever you want with it as long as its non-commercial.

There are conferences where people go and present research and other cool things they do with the data. MLB sends people to them and most teams do as well. If you present something cool, you'll have half a dozen teams asking you for an interview.

[1] https://baseballsavant.mlb.com

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#40

Post by anigbrowl »

akiselev wrote: post #38
anigbrowl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just use a cannon to shoot the ball? Ideas like yours take all the fun out of play and ruin it for everyone else. We all know we can build machines to do things better than humans, but so what? It's the uncertainty and imperfection and second guessing that makes a game enjoyable to watch or play in the first place.

There's a lot of money and ego at stake in sports world. Enjoyment is a very distant concern.

Enjoyment is why attention and money flows toward sports. Hence the swingeing penalties now that this misbehavior have come to light. If the game isn't relatable to enough fans it starts to die.
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