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How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

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Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#21

Post by incompatible »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #17
incompatible wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated, how do you steal signs by making a banging noise? What is a "sign", anyway? What electronics are involved? The article doesn't explain anything.

I'm basing this on a single article I read that was a little more detailed. A "sign" is a hand signal the catcher makes to the pitcher, indicating which pitch (fastball / curveball / whatever) the pitcher will throw. If the pitcher wants to throw something else, he shakes his head, and the catcher signals something different. Repeat until the pitcher is happy. The pitcher's rejection is visible to everyone, but the c…

Thanks, and also to the others who replied. It seems a bit crazy that anybody would try that given that sooner or later somebody would surely figure out what was going on.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#22

Post by wj »

wyxuan wrote: post #3

I think the best part about the whole thing is that there are so many memes accompanying the investigation. I'm not sure however, that the internet really helped crack the case. Th article shows that the internet came to similar conclusions as the real MLB investigation.

I read an article today from 2018 that mentioned the Astros banging trash cans. Apparently MLB has known about these allegations for a while and didn't investigate. It took it coming out on social media for them to finally launch the investigation.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#23

Post by dole »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #12

I will just say this. I am a Dodgers fan and Houston's cheating may well have ruined Kershaw's legacy, one of the best pitchers to have ever lived and played baseball. Shame shame Shame.

Not a Doyers and Kershaw fan, but I agree with his legacy. Glad to see Darvish vindicated if only a little bit.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#24

Post by mroche »

dole wrote: post #19
incompatible wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated, how do you steal signs by making a banging noise? What is a "sign", anyway? What electronics are involved? The article doesn't explain anything.

A sign is when the crouching catcher flashes a hand gesture between their legs to indicate to the pitcher which type of pitch to throw against the batter. The Astros adjusted the placement of a camera to better see the catcher’s signs, someone on a laptop in the locker room watching the camera would see the sign, bang on a trash can to make a loud noise the dugout and presumably the batter to know when (usually) a fa…

Two points, according to the article (unless I misread something):

They were hopping off the center field feed. This is the feed that viewers at home see when a pitch is thrown. If someone spent the time at home, you could catalog all the signs between a pitcher and a catcher just fine.

They were looking for offspeed pitches, i.e changeups. This is a pitch used to fake out a batter through a speed change. Most standard pitches are thrown in the 85+ mph range, including the breaking (curve, slider) ball types. Fastballs, with current players, are in the mid-90s+ with a few throwing 100. A changeup is significantly (relatively) slower than these pitches so a batter will swing much earlier than normal and completely miss the ball. However, if the player guesses right or is told this particular pitch is coming, it’s pretty much like hitting a ball off a tee, for all intents and purposes.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#25

Post by thawaway1837 »

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #20
incompatible wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated, how do you steal signs by making a banging noise? What is a "sign", anyway? What electronics are involved? The article doesn't explain anything.

During a game, the catcher and the pitcher have to both know what pitch is being thrown so the catcher can catch it - it’s hard to catch breaking balls unless you know to expect one. So the game has evolved that the catcher normally “calls” games, eg decides what pitch the pitcher is going to throw. Catchers make careers on how well they call games. They are the smartest players on the field, and have to remember the…

To add to this, the Astros has basically installed cameras in their stadium that allowed the coaches and players in the dugout to know which sign the catcher has signalled (the dugouts are behind the catcher, so you cannot normally see the catchers sign from there).

The dugout then used the drum banging method to convey that information to the batter.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#26

Post by LanceH »

remarkEon wrote: post #11
redis_mlc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> casts a shadow on the integrity of the game MLB. FIFA. OOC. ... let me know when you can see a difference, lol.

Well, the latter two seem institutionally corrupt in a way MLB is not - at least today.

The feigned shock at steroids. The shakedowns of cities for ballparks while offering a suite to the city council and other politicians. The corruption is just a local flavor.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#27

Post by MaxGabriel »

incompatible wrote: post #13

For the uninitiated, how do you steal signs by making a banging noise? What is a "sign", anyway? What electronics are involved? The article doesn't explain anything.

Hopefully someone who actually knows baseball can correct me if I get this wrong, but:

In baseball, the pitcher stands in the middle of a diamond-shaped field. They throw the ball towards the opposing team's batter, who tries to hit it. The pitcher's goal is to get the ball past the opposing batter to the catcher, who is squatting on the ground behind the batter.

The catcher, having full view of all the players and being close to the batter, can opt to signal to the pitcher how best to throw the ball to get it past the batter. For example, they may raise 1 finger to throw it as fast as possible ("fastball"), 2 to make it _seem_ look a fastball but actually slow it down ("changeup"), 3 to curve the ball, etc. The catcher does this such that only the pitcher has a good view of it. This is called a "sign".

It's legal for the opposing team to try to see what the catcher is signaling and inform the batter, but not to do so with electronic equipment. The Astros were using video cameras to get a close look at the catcher's signs, then banging a metal drum to inform the batter of what kind of pitch was being signaled.

The article has an embedded Tweet which has a good video demonstrating all this.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#28

Post by dole »

incompatible wrote: post #21
thaumasiotes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm basing this on a single article I read that was a little more detailed. A "sign" is a hand signal the catcher makes to the pitcher, indicating which pitch (fastball / curveball / whatever) the pitcher will throw. If the pitcher wants to throw something else, he shakes his head, and the catcher signals something different. Repeat until the pitcher is happy. The pitcher's rejection is visible to everyone, but the c…

Thanks, and also to the others who replied. It seems a bit crazy that anybody would try that given that sooner or later somebody would surely figure out what was going on.

Electronically speaking, it’s worth noting there’s a current rumor and image hunt going on on Twitter of the Astros possibly using “buzzers”, small radio—activated vibrating devices taped to the body, to steal signs back around when this was going on in 2017.

As has been said, teams have been stealing signs since the beginning of the sport and it’s an understood or “gentleman’s” rule that it’s acceptable — as long no technology is used and it’s not blatant. However, teams have used body buzzers, buzzers and signals buried by the bases and similar electric and radio devices for close to 100 years or more now, since electricity itself became ubiquitous.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#29

Post by freehunter »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #12

I will just say this. I am a Dodgers fan and Houston's cheating may well have ruined Kershaw's legacy, one of the best pitchers to have ever lived and played baseball. Shame shame Shame.

Similar for me as a Detroit fan with Justin Verlander. Half of me is glad to see his World Series win wasn’t revoked, but the other half says he was party to the cheating and should have been punished. But the shame is he’s one of the best pitchers in the game without cheating... why did he do it? Shame indeed.

Re: How the internet helped crack the Astros' sign-stealing case

#30

Post by dole »

mroche wrote: post #24
dole wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sign is when the crouching catcher flashes a hand gesture between their legs to indicate to the pitcher which type of pitch to throw against the batter. The Astros adjusted the placement of a camera to better see the catcher’s signs, someone on a laptop in the locker room watching the camera would see the sign, bang on a trash can to make a loud noise the dugout and presumably the batter to know when (usually) a fa…

Two points, according to the article (unless I misread something): They were hopping off the center field feed. This is the feed that viewers at home see when a pitch is thrown. If someone spent the time at home, you could catalog all the signs between a pitcher and a catcher just fine. They were looking for offspeed pitches, i.e changeups. This is a pitch used to fake out a batter through a speed change. Most standa…

The Astros also adjusted the placement and angle of that center field feed in order to get a better unobstructed view of the catcher’s signs around that time as well. Before and after images showing the difference of position from what was supposed to be the same camera and how much better the view was.
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