Solution: compulsory paternity leave for male academics.
An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
571–580 of 748 posts
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#572Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age. Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a me…
32 hour workweeks might work but there will always be the issue of defection . If a company allows employees to take unlimited leave, then worker A who avails him/herself of it, will be at a disadvantage to worker B who keeps working like a dog, when it comes time for promotions. If company A mandates 32 hour workweeks, then they will eventually lose out to their competitor company B who mandates 40 hours (or more in…
Wouldn't these concerns apply just as well to minimum wage laws, OSHA regulations, environmental protections, etc?
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#573Solution: compulsory paternity leave for male academics.
Outcome: childfree academics (of all genders) win.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#574I like how she "catches readers up" on women's biology. Since she went out of her way to do that I think this would be further supported by why women want to bear children. Or thoughts and perspectives from the women that do not have children.
The article does a good job of identifying the funnel. It reiterates what we already know about society: women are aware of their biological clock and people desire to make children. But it does make an assumption that the women that stay in the funnel are childless victims, or at least portrays them that way. "Meanwhile in the Netherlands, woe!" This is hyperbole, but barely. It is okay to assume an even distribution of wants and desires as the non-STEM women, but what if there isn't? Let's get some perspectives.
Additionally, freezing eggs, surrogacy, and adoption are options followed by additional help with nannies and au pair, costly options which could be supported and subsidized by the very arguments that this article is making.
I think the case would be even stronger if we added the perspective from the child free women, along with a perspective about cultural tweaks that women could also consider. Distinct from only pointing out what organizations do not do to address the maternal wall.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#575Earlier quoted context omitted.
Non-working mothers is a modern anomaly. It used to be a sign of wealth for a man to have a non-working wife. That is why the newly affluent men of the mid-20th century wanted it so much. They came out of the great depression, fought a great war, and wanted a wife at home. You should not judge all of history by this one era. The work of child care used to fall on the entire extended family. The nuclear family reduced…
> Non-working mothers is a modern anomaly. It used to be a sign of wealth for a man to have a non-working wife. You really need some data to back it up here. "I worked, my mother worked, my grandmothers worked, and my great grandmothers worked." is not good evidence. For one, there is a representative issue. For another, there is a huge difference between part-time work and full-time work. We don't know how many hour…
Most people for most of history were peasants. Peasant women don't just raise children - they usually contribute to almost everything else that the farming economy requires, as well. Think of old photos of peasants/poor farmers. Do the women look like they have been spending their time just raising children?
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#576Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…
Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…
> Instead, we are soft forcing Mothers to drop their kids in the care of poorly paid strangers at the earliest convenience, to spend their full time energy enriching faceless shareholders.
Is there any evidence indicating that this is actually true? What makes you think that the existence of out-of-home childcare is forcing mothers to work? This seems backwards; I think it's much more likely that the existence of mothers who worked would lead to alternative childcare options being offered, not vice-versa.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#577Earlier quoted context omitted.
Non-working mothers is a modern anomaly. It used to be a sign of wealth for a man to have a non-working wife. That is why the newly affluent men of the mid-20th century wanted it so much. They came out of the great depression, fought a great war, and wanted a wife at home. You should not judge all of history by this one era. The work of child care used to fall on the entire extended family. The nuclear family reduced…
Of course! But that's only a tiny minority of wealthy women. Nobody is claiming that, historically, women did not work. It's just that female work was performed in proximity of their young children and interweaved with their care. Which is work in itself as well. The historical norm of peasant societies is gendered work roles. Roughly speaking, the male works in the fields and the female works around the house / vill…
Working around the house/village is still work. Male peasants for the most part don't work outside the house/village either. They usually work on fields that relatively close to where they live. And a large fraction of the women work alongside them. Older men and women - grandpas and grandmas, etc. - do a lot of the childrearing while the younger women work.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#578Maybe they're just not as into it? Does anyone ever stop to consider that? Maybe women are doing what's best for themselves, sticking to things they like, and screw your arrogant western leftist ideas of what YOU think they should do? Let's just pretend women like shoes and handbags more and men like engines and guns more just for purely random reasons. Despite global perpetuity. Everywhere ever. Let's just pretend e…
The impression you got from the article was that author just isn't into STEM? If you want to make an argument based on women's preferences, you might consider a closer reading of what they're saying.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#579I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need t…
I’d just like to echo some of the other comments; my wife is currently pregnant and it’s already clear that the burden is largely with her. I simply cannot get the vaccines and blood tests she needs, my hormones aren’t loosening all of my joints and I’m not exhausted most of the time. The challenge isn’t just who is going to look after them once they’re born.
Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM
#580Earlier quoted context omitted.
You called the expectation of men to be breadwinners a natural consequence of sexual dimorphism, and said it was folly to "engineer" it away. That is a statement about how you think society should be arranged and why. Also, if you believe _all_ arrangements of society will eventually fall, then wouldn't that make any arrangement acceptable to you? Including the one you were dismissing?
> You called the expectation of men to be breadwinners a natural consequence of sexual dimorphism, and said it was folly to "engineer" it away. That is a statement about how you think society should be arranged and why. No it isn't. It is a statement of what I believe to be the truth. All the evidence and arguments around the topic I have seen and heard seem to lead in that direction. If you disagree with that conclu…
Maybe we are talking past each other because we have different definitions here. How do you define sexism (in this context, for you)?