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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

If a full time caregiver is needed at home, dads can step up as well. After being laid off shortly after we had our first kid, I decided to give my wife a chance to get back into her career while I stayed at home until the kid was ready for daycare. There is no reason to put all this burden on moms, dads have an equal part in this either way.

They should and sometimes do.

I read a study (from Rutgers I believe) about men who scale back on work to care for children. The conclusion was that while women are more likely to incur a “parent penalty”, this is partly explained by e fact that many men simply don’t scale back. The comparatively small number of men who do take time off or scale back to care for children face unusually severe career penalties for it. Some ideas explored were penalties for violating gender norms. Employers penalize women but in the end kind of expected this. When the men do it employers treat it as a kind of misrepresentation of intent and respond punitively.

I know a cite would be particularly helpful here, I’ll try to dig it up.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#352

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need t…

Women are more likely to want to be the primary caregiver to something that actually came out of them. It's biological and there's nothing sexist about it.

It's partly biological but there are still many existing cultural attitudes that discourage husbands from performining traditionally "feminine" roles/tasks when caring for their kids.

The author's point about being over-critical of sexism is well-taken, but by reducing the sexist attitudes towards, for example, stay-at-home dads, it may be possible to help more women in STEM have fully productive careers.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#353

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need t…

The flip side of the coin is that women overwhelmingly prefer higher-paid, more successful, higher-status, equally-or-more-educated men as partners. Then the choice of who should stay at home is pretty obvious (or no choice but necessity brought to you by brutal economic reality).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#355
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

Men are hardwired to ascend to the top of the hierachy so they can access all the women. That's why male billonaires will risk their fortune to make another billion. Women are not rewarded biologically for being the top 2% in their industry. It's almost as if the higher women climb career wise the fewer dating options they have because women tend to want men that are even higher on the totem pole. Outside of a score…

How does your theory account for the 98% of men who are not top 2%?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#356
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

It's right there in the article. You can't take a break from academia. Well, you can, but your career prospects suffer horribly. A quote: "Taking a year off during that critical 5 or 6 year period often means that the research “goes bad” ... You wind up needing to rebuild much more than just a year’s worth of effort."

Compare it with e.g. big tech - a hypothetical female PM who has just completed a big project can go off on a maternity leave and return to the memories of her success slightly faded, her contacts gone slightly cold, but otherwise she can start more or less where she left.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#357
post #276
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

I don’t have any compelling evidence at hand, but professionals on STEM fields usually seem compelled to engage on career-related activities off their work hours, which is pretty much impossible during childbearing years.

You’ve never met a doctor in his/her prime? Doctors are extremely overworked in their late 20s.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#358

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

Or we move 3,000 miles away to somewhere more economically prosperous (and also, more expensive) so the grandparent's couldn't financially make it viable to come with. All of my parents grew up and lived in the same state as their siblings. All of my siblings live in different states, and none of us live in the same state as our parents. My siblings and I don't have any kids yet, but their family life and amount of t…

> Or we move 3,000 miles away to somewhere more economically prosperous (and also, more expensive) so the grandparent's couldn't financially make it viable to come with

Judging from my neighborhood at least, the answer to that seems to be the grandparents get a class A RV [1] or a large travel trailer [2] and move to their kid's lawn for a few months to help with the grandkids.

Probably only can reasonably work, though, if the kids wait until they have a home and decent sizes lawn to have kids of their own.

[1] https://www.fleetwoodrv.com/models/pace-arrow-1

[2] https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/specs-by-model-2019-heartland...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#359
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

Remember "The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21774299

This one, I saw also today ..

Institutions in the country introduced gender quotas for internal committees and boards in an effort to reduce bias during hiring and other inequalities, but such measures themselves are now being labelled potential hindrances to female progression because the roles cost women career-crucial research time.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/germany-mulls-extr...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#360
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RT article said that "Nearly half the couples had not had sex in a month". That happens because they prefer to do something else instead. Will you grant that this means that interest in sex has fallen? The Politifact article says "In 2013 a whopping 45 percent of women aged 16 to 24 ‘were not interested in or despised sexual contact,’ and more than a quarter of men felt the same way." Which matches my claim: > Ne…

> My claim was that disgust with sex is rising. > What do you make of these data points? I think they successfully demonstrate that interest in sex is falling. You're equivocating between disgust and lack of interest, but these are very different things. I wouldn't have bothered asking for a source if you had blamed falling interest rather than rising disgust.

I don't think I am "equivocating between disgust and lack of interest".

My motivating concern is universally dropping fertility and whether the reasons are disgust and disinterest, they both cash out the same way. No babies.

So, yes, they exist as two distinct categories, both inside a larger category. I'm talking about that larger category.

Let's imagine that people want to have sex, but they can't find the time in their busy lives. I would lump that in with disinterest. Now, whether you would or not is a discussion about your language preferences. You are entitled to language preferences, but I'm more interested in the slow suicide of everyone around me.

I find this slow suicide fascinating.

Maybe everyone is too busy arguing on the internet about what words mean to have children. That's weird and bad. That's a future we should avoid.

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