An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#241

Post by cpitman » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

tus88 wrote: post #147

> women leave the field at a rate 3 to 4 times greater than men, and in particular, if they do not obtain a faculty position quickly Wait what....you mean by STEM you just meant academia?

Exactly my confusion with this article. I have multiple female friends who have earned doctorates in STEM who have either left or are planning on leaving academia to go to industry. However, they are still all going into STEM jobs!

So maybe the problem is that industry STEM is offering an overall better benefits package than academia? We're seeing the same thing in fields like AI, where academia can't retain top talent.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#242

Post by dcole2929 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

A lot of people would argue, imo correctly, that this is just a different form of sexism. The idea that progressing in your career means sacrificing work/life balance and more importantly family could absolutely be construed as the end result of a sexist mind state that doesn't value motherhood and family rearing to the degree it should. Obviously this affect men who want to be present and active participants in their children's lives as well, but as the author points out in many cases the inflection point at which ones career can really take off also overlaps with prime childbearing years.

There is a lot of pressure on woman to have families and in circumstances where their right and ability to both do that and progress in their careers isn't respected and protected we end up with the current system. One in which woman drop out of less flexible fields earlier, and even in them don't get promoted as fast as their male counterparts who don't need to bow out of the field for months at a time to have a child.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#243

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #209

hurricanetc wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women. It's just a biological reality. It is certainly possible to have a healthy birth after the age of 35 but the rate of health problems and birth defects don't go up linearly with age. The rate of pregnancy loss is 35% after the age of 35 and is above 50% after the age of 45. This is just reality. If women want to have multiple children it is wise to start befo…

The statistics do not tell the whole story. A reason I suggest young women speak with women who started families mid-late career would hear actual experiences, giving perspective that it's not as bleak as the statistics show. We had two children, both healthy, after mom was 35. We also had a pregnancy that didn't go to term. I surmise women might take some comfort in knowing that pregnancy complications are normal.

It's not about individual anecdotes, it's about probabilities and actuarial risks.

A woman who gets pregnant at 25 is less likely to have issues than a woman who gets pregnant at 35 and much less likely to have issues than a woman who gets pregnant at 45.

That's the reality.

The fact that some women have successful pregnancies at 45 doesn't change it. Nor does it suggest that women should simply ignore the facts and hope for the best.

Some drivers make successful journeys while drunk, without killing themselves or anyone else. That doesn't mean drunk driving is a recommended personal choice, or that the element of choice somehow makes the risks disappear, or that drunk drivers who happen to beat the odds and survive many journeys should be sharing their lifestyle choices with others.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#244

Post by pb7 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

thereisnospork wrote: post #107

fizwhiz wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their…

SWE's are a tiny slice of 'STEM' and by far the most profitable. How much do you think the average phd in biology makes? maybe 30k/y till 27, then 45k/y till 30, then followed by 75-90?

Doctors are also a tiny slice of medicine. Nurses make a fraction of what doctors make, and other roles like Clinical Laboratory Technologist and Radiology Technician that make healthcare possible make even less.

Law exhibits a bimodal distribution in compensation as well. Paralegals make even less than poorly compensated lawyers.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#245

Post by zxcmx » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improve working conditions.

This is exactly what is happening! (Well, the leaving, not the improving).

The argument is that men are more willing to put up with the particular nature of the poor working conditions in academia, hence women disproportionately leave.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#246

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #213

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

Having kids changes a lot of priorities about passion and socialization, although this generally affects all genders.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#247

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #213

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#248

Post by marchenko » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #189

ng7j5d9 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels almost like the minor league / major league situation in professional sports. Minor league baseball players are generally not paid a living wage, and major league players start around half a million dollars a year. Obviously many players are doing everything they can to reach that dream job (even if most fail). That idea of being a comfortable tenured professor at a great school is a dream for many. And obvious…

Yeah. I forget what the term is but there are a number of occupations where's there's a big gap between the "lottery winners" and the hoi polloi. Arguably even the winners in academia don't make that much in terms of money but they're still viewed as successful professionals, have a decent lifestyle, and do OK--especially if they're not in the highest cost areas.

These kinds of professions are often referred to as "tournaments", a term I think captures their essence nicely. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tournament_theory)

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#249

Post by tomohawk » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

> I would presume that if we made academia a more feasible place for a woman with a family to work, we could keep almost all of those 20% of leavers who leave to just stay at home...

That one word 'just' speaks volumes. People grow up. People change. Perhaps they want a different challenge than what academic achievement can provide. Raising children is challenging, daunting, and rewarding.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#250

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

If a full time caregiver is needed at home, dads can step up as well. After being laid off shortly after we had our first kid, I decided to give my wife a chance to get back into her career while I stayed at home until the kid was ready for daycare. There is no reason to put all this burden on moms, dads have an equal part in this either way.