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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#291

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

Sometimes it can go the other way too. My Grandparents had little interest in "babysitting" or living nearby us when we were young.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#292
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

Law and medicine allow for maternity leave.

In academia, you have a set amount of time to get tenure. It is not extended for pregnancy. If you don't get tenure, your career is basically over.

While the article talks about leaving STEM it focuses on PhDs and academia. This is an academia problem, it's not specific to STEM.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#293

So... it's not sexism, it's the structurally sexist way that child-rearing is handled? I mean, it's a more actionable level of detail, but it's still sexism, no? Just maybe more structural rather than at the level of individual hiring or advancing decisions?

Yes, the author seems to have a very narrow (and incorrect) view of what sexism is.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#295
I’d love to be wrong, but my gut feeling is that a huge proportion of HN readers are men—probably even a larger proportion than in the tech industry in general. It makes it feel kinda weird when these articles the gist of which are “women are wrong about women’s issues” come up. That applies equally to the “all men’s problems are women’s fault” articles that seem to be just as popular around here.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#296
post #267

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no representation because I could make a greater impact! This whole ideology of having representation everywhere is very dumb and conformist.

Because countries where women are dominated by men both legally and culturally, have higher rates of birth, crime, poverty, etc., than countries where women have a level of social mobility similar to men.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#297

My note to the author, enjoy your career. If and when you feel ready to start a family, you will. And if it doesn't happen, you'll be okay too. Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women. Perhaps STEM women who are early career (24-28) would benefit from meeting mothers (both who are in STEM and not in STEM careers) who had children at age 35+. > ...Women who stay in academia expect to marry later, and…

> Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women Actually not. It's not just the genetics / pregnancy problems that are proven to significantly rise with age... but also that the time of menopause can neither be forecast nor the effects reversed (some hit it with 40, some with 60!), so there is a significant disadvantage (=no kids at all) for waiting too long. Additionally: do you want to deal with a baby…

I absolutely agree, maternal age is not discussed often enough, there are a number of risks that go up significantly when you wait until later to have children, for both men and women. A mother at age 20 has a 1 in 1,441 of having a baby with a Down Syndrome, whereas the odds are 1 in 84 at 40 years of age. Even at age 35 there's a 1 in 338 chance of a woman giving birth to a baby with Down Syndrome which is an order of magnitude higher than a woman at age 20 has, and that's just one defect! There are a whole host of defects including Autism that are strongly associated with the mother's age. Similarly a woman who has a baby at 40 has a 5.5% chance of dying before that child's 18th birthday, at 20 the odds of dying before your child reaches adulthood is only 0.6%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_maternal_age#Risk_of_...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#298

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

Or we move 3,000 miles away to somewhere more economically prosperous (and also, more expensive) so the grandparent's couldn't financially make it viable to come with.

All of my parents grew up and lived in the same state as their siblings. All of my siblings live in different states, and none of us live in the same state as our parents.

My siblings and I don't have any kids yet, but their family life and amount of time they spend with extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins) will look dramatically different than my experience, and it's only been ~25 or so years.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#299

So... it's not sexism, it's the structurally sexist way that child-rearing is handled? I mean, it's a more actionable level of detail, but it's still sexism, no? Just maybe more structural rather than at the level of individual hiring or advancing decisions?

Yes, the author seems to have a very narrow (and incorrect) view of what sexism is.

I do think that shedding light on the way structural sexism in policies regarding parental leave and childcare costs is a very useful thing to do, though!

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#300
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

Men are hardwired to ascend to the top of the hierachy so they can access all the women. That's why male billonaires will risk their fortune to make another billion.

Women are not rewarded biologically for being the top 2% in their industry. It's almost as if the higher women climb career wise the fewer dating options they have because women tend to want men that are even higher on the totem pole.

Outside of a score keeping system, each additional dollar is less rewarding very quickly once you pass $150k in income.

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