An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#261

Post by icandoit » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:06 PM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #224

icandoit wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly half of young women in Japan are "uninterested in sex" or "averse to sex" - https://www.rt.com/news/377342-sexless-japanese-marriages-st... - https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/23... I remember seeing a similar headline for German women but cannot find a source now. (I think people expect weird think from Japan so it's good practice to compare to other countries) Maybe social media and i…

The RT article doesn't say anything about disgust, so why bother linking to it? The Politifact article does involve aversion, but only aggregated with disinterest: "The percentage of women who responded they were not interested in sex at all or felt an aversion to it was 60.3 percent for ages 16-19 and 31.6 percent for ages 20-24. Combine the age groups, and the average response was about 46 percent negative — the fi…

The RT article said that "Nearly half the couples had not had sex in a month". That happens because they prefer to do something else instead.

Will you grant that this means that interest in sex has fallen?

The Politifact article says "In 2013 a whopping 45 percent of women aged 16 to 24 ‘were not interested in or despised sexual contact,’ and more than a quarter of men felt the same way."

Which matches my claim:

> Nearly half of young women in Japan are "uninterested in sex" or "averse to sex"

My claim was that disgust with sex is rising.

Another article makes these delightful claims:

https://time.com/5297145/is-sex-dead/

  - More than 40% of Japanese 18- to 34-year-old singles claim they are virgins.
  - the fraction of people getting it on at least once a week fell from 45% in 2000 to 36% in 2016.
  - more than twice as many millennials were sexually inactive in their early 20s than the prior generation was.
  - In 2016, 4% fewer condoms were sold than the year before, and they fell a further 3% in 2017.
  - Teen sex is flat and has been on a downward trend since 1985
  - The median age for first marriage in America is now 29 for men and 27 for women, up from 27 and 25 in 1999.
  - the highest drop in sexual frequency has been among married people with higher levels of education
  - those with offspring in the 6 to 17 age range were doing less of what made them parents

What do you make of these data points? I think they successfully demonstrate that interest in sex is falling.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#262

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #176

ixtli wrote: post #105

> When you ask women why they left, the number one reason they cite is balancing work/life responsibilities — which as far as I can tell is a euphemism for family concerns. At least in america women are, in this way, almost always asked to choose between their career and having children. This is asymmetrical with men's experience because whether or not they are comfortable with it, its considered normal for them to s…

This frames the decision to dedicate more time towards childcare than work as a something thrust onto women by societal expectation when women would rather work. Studies indicate that only 20% of women would prefer to work full time after having a child, with the rest preferring part time work or staying at home with the children. Furthermore, 70% of women with children that are currently working full time responded…

I suspect given an economic choice, many men would prefer not to work full time either.

For some reason men don't get asked whether or not this is true. It's simply assumed that men will dedicate their lives to work because it's the only way to pay for a family.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#263

Post by daotoad » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

My only quibble with this article is that the fact that there is a wall related to child bearing and rearing IS institutional sexism.

It's just a different form of it than the "my coworkers constantly stare at my tits and don't take what I say seriously" variety.

We've put women largely in charge of child rearing duties. Obviously, men aren't able to get pregnant and bear children. We are, however, perfectly capable of changing diapers, singing lullabies, and doing laundry.

I'd bet that we would see the same kind of impediments to women rising to the tops of their professions in many demanding fields, fields where if you take too much time to have a life, you are considered broken and uninterested in excellence.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#264

Post by proc0 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

naiveprogrammer wrote: post #177

I appreciate the author's piece but motherhood is not an alternative argument for why women leave STEM, it is THE argument. It is, in all likelihood, the strongest factor to influence women's decisions to leave the field. The evidence is getting overwhelming, just check the most recent publications by Harvard Professor Claudia Goldin (most recent: https://test.openicpsr.org/openicpsr/project/113672/version/... ) Sexi…

Yes, this is what I was thinking. Feminism is ruining women by mistakenly telling them they want something that might make them unhappy. What do women gain by having 50% professional nuclear physicists or 50% coal miners?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#265

Post by willhslade » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #247

sequoia wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environ…

This is not a sufficient explanation. There’s more women in law and medicine, which are equally, if not more demanding. There must be something else - the nature of work (more people, less machines), the atmosphere (less bro, more professional), the pay (STEM careers plateau quickly)...

Law and medicine don't Logan's run you out with a constantly and pointlessly changing tech stack every five years.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#266

Post by WalterBright » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

icandoit wrote: post #190

WalterBright wrote: post #150

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

I wonder how much the feeling is one-sided. I visit my grandparents more often than they visit me (even generously discounting for physical ability, income, and the one-to-many relationship). I think the way to measure this might be grandparents moving out of state of family (think Arizona and Florida). Obviously the stigma of aging should get the bulk of the responsibility here. Any got any advice on how to re-norm…

> Any got any advice on how to re-norm grandparents? I'm hesitating on moving out of state during my kids early childhood.

Living in the same neighborhood as your grandparents would be best. I know families that do that, and the payoff is great for the kids, the parents, and the grandparents. The kids love their grandparents, the grandparents love taking care of the kids, and the parents get safe, reliable, and free help. It's a win all around.

It's the way things ought to be.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#267

Post by proc0 » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

Why do we care that there are equal women and men again? Why does representation actually matter again? I would find it more exciting to see a field with no representation because I could make a greater impact! This whole ideology of having representation everywhere is very dumb and conformist.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#268

Post by arwhatever » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

It just so happens I have a hidden camera video of you at one of these interviews. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtwXlIwozog

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#269

Post by codingmess » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

entee wrote: post #40

GCA10 wrote: post #15

Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Feminist narrative is that taking care of family is a stressful burden and women would love nothing more than to get away from that to relax in their fulfilling career. That narrative is nonsense, and the evidence is simply that in this day and age, nobody is forced to have children anymore.

While a certain fraction of women don't "feel it" around their kids and prefer to work, it really isn't the case for most mothers. Many have kids because they also then enjoy spending time with their kids.

The article cites a number of 50% of mothers wanting to work, but I really doubt that number. Or rather, it is too unspecific. What kind of work, and for how many hours? Sure many would want to work part time, for good pay, with flexible hours. But it's kind of silly to ask that kind of question. Who wouldn't say yes if asked "would you like to get a higher salary, work less hours and so on". There also is a "the grass is always greener on the other side effect" - many mothers who decide to go back to work end up being rather stressed out about it all.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#270

Post by buboard » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

hguant wrote: post #93

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

>My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Every now and then I get an overwhelming sense of guilt when I talk to/think about my friends who are engaged in academia or pursuing advanced degrees (I'm 28, for reference). The crazy workloads they have, the insane restrictions on how they can do their jobs, and the cut-throat n…

Working longer/harder doesn’t mean more efficiently. And the idea of the visionary idealist scientist upon whom humanity rests is a romantic idea from the past.