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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#21

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

danharaj wrote: post #16
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to the main premise of your comment, that "the fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism." This implies discrimination due to external forces that make men and women behave differently.

What do you mean by external forces? These are all interactions between human beings. We behave that we do in large part based on our interactions with others. Would you say that it is "external forces" that cause us two to communicate in English? What is the alternative position you're suggesting?

"Structural sexism" implies nonintrinsic forces causing discrimination, hence why I called it an external force, as it's a force not generated internally.

I think the effects of evolutionary biology need to be considered when looking at behavioral differences. Evolutionarily speaking, women invest much more energy into growing, giving birth to, and caring for children than men. This leads to innate differences in behavior separate from social forces you are describing.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#22

Post by fred_is_fred »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7
danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

This assumes that men and women en masse want equal roles in raising children. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

Although I love my kids I would go clinically insane if I had to do the stay-at-home raising of them full time. My wife OTOH loves it and would rather do nothing else. I know that this is swapped for many couples, but I still argue that reality is more skewed this way than the other. Maybe that will change over time.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#23

Post by dang »

gbrown wrote: post #6

Judging by what happens most times gender in tech comes up on HN, I’m sure this thread will be buckets of fun.

Please don't make the thread even worse by posting unsubstantive comments about it.

It's a divisive topic, so fractiousness is not easy to avoid, but everyone should make sure they're up to date on the site guidelines before posting. They include: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#24

Post by mech1234 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #5

I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…

Your judgement of the article was nearly entirely informed by who wrote it rather than its contents. That's a good way to continue a culture war, not a good way to discover the truth.

I implore you to consider the well-founded facts on both sides, not to claim this piece has absolutely nothing worth saying.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#25

Post by darawk »

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism.

You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is sexist. That is maybe a more interesting point than the former, but I don't think it really holds up to scrutiny. Choosing to take on the burden of childcare is choosing to spend less time working. In any other context, if a person chooses to work less, that negatively impacts their earning, and we consider that perfectly reasonable and fair. If I choose to play video games for 8 hours a day and work part time, basically everyone accepts it's reasonable that I make less money.

Now, if women are being pressured or forced into accepting this childcare responsibility at their own economic expense, then yes. That is 100% structural sexism. Also, if society would have treated men making this choice differently than women, then that too would represent structural sexism. But there are men making this choice, and their careers are generally just as negatively impacted as the women who make it.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#26

Post by pgeorgi »

larrik wrote: post #13
deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

> I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. As someone who has adopted 3 children, I assure you that the biological route is way easier and cheaper. It's not like rescuing a dog from the pound...

Except for birth and family planning related complications that are minimized in exactly the time frame where career effects tend to compound (or so the article seems to claim)

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#27

Post by darawk »

csb6 wrote: post #19
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that men and women en masse want equal roles in raising children. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

Sure, many more women may choose to take the more active role, but it’s important to consider that these conscious choices are affected by implicit social pressures and expectations that are placed on men and women from childhood onwards, such as men being expected to be breadwinners and women being expected to be caregivers. These are pretty arbitrary social constructs that are not universal or intrinsic to nature o…

It's true that these social pressures exist, and they are certainly sexist. But I think it's important to distinguish that the pressure is what's sexist, not the impact of the choice.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#28

Post by cortesoft »

deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

The desire for biological children is pretty ingrained in our psyche.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#29

Post by toufka »

GCA10 wrote: post #15

Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…

There is an unfortunate distinction between those other professions - STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. And that 'moment' is generally delayed in STEM compared to those professions; you start generating your first real paycheck in STEM, with some stability in your career path at your early-mid thirties. Even medicine (which is longer than consulting & law), stability can be reached before that.
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