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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

medium.com

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#11

I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…

I agree, to the point where I wish that we'd just talk about the original article instead of this repost, instead. Maybe the URL could be changed to [0]?

[0] https://medium.com/@kjmorenz/is-it-really-just-sexism-an-alt...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#13
post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

> I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children.

As someone who has adopted 3 children, I assure you that the biological route is way easier and cheaper. It's not like rescuing a dog from the pound...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes that men and women en masse want equal roles in raising children. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

What does? I made a few claims.

I was responding to the main premise of your comment, that "the fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism." This implies discrimination due to external forces that make men and women behave differently.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#15
Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense.

It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law and medicine. I've written about them elsewhere.

In medicine, there's been a surge of female participation (and leadership) in specialties such as dermatology, psychiatry and radiology, where it's relatively easier to rearrange hours and training regimens to be family compatible. There's been less progress in surgery, where hellish hours are considered part of the journey.

In law, some firms have been experimenting with a blurring of the boundaries between associate and partner, so that there's a middle level at which women can enter into motherhood without tanking their career chances. (In the traditional model, close to 40% of entry-level associates are female, but few of them stick around to make partner.)

I'm wondering if either of those models is transferable to STEM academia. Are there particular sub-disciplines where professional success and sane hours might be more compatible? Similarly, are there tenure-track or quasi-tenure track job titles that split the difference in tolerable ways?

I haven't researched these well enough to have clear answers. But it's worth discussing.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does? I made a few claims.

I was responding to the main premise of your comment, that "the fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism." This implies discrimination due to external forces that make men and women behave differently.

What do you mean by external forces? These are all interactions between human beings. We behave that we do in large part based on our interactions with others. Would you say that it is "external forces" that cause us two to communicate in English?

What is the alternative position you're suggesting?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#17
post #12

Its almost like they are biologically and mentally hard-wired to have children! How dares nature to create a unequal duality with specialized roles.

I, and many others, hold the expectation that we are quite capable of overcoming our animal instincts (in this, but importantly in many other aspects also) to make a better world. Especially if the presence of the instinct is used as a pseudo science excuse.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#18
post #12

Its almost like they are biologically and mentally hard-wired to have children! How dares nature to create a unequal duality with specialized roles.

Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN—especially not on powderkeg topics. We ban accounts that do that, for what should be obvious reasons if you read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#19
post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

This assumes that men and women en masse want equal roles in raising children. I'm not convinced that this is the case.

Sure, many more women may choose to take the more active role, but it’s important to consider that these conscious choices are affected by implicit social pressures and expectations that are placed on men and women from childhood onwards, such as men being expected to be breadwinners and women being expected to be caregivers. These are pretty arbitrary social constructs that are not universal or intrinsic to nature or even human societies. So it follows that what men and women would say they desire is not the full picture, since they may be unaware of the implicit forces acting on them.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#20

I find this a bit pointless- Scott Aaronson has his views that are not the views of a sizeable majority of women in STEM, who find that their career progression is hindered by institutionalised sexism. At some point Aaronson finds or receives a dissenting opinion from a woman in STEM. He publishes it, with a preface suggesting that _this_ is the _real_ view of a majority of women in STEM (the opinion "dovetails with…

I agree, to the point where I wish that we'd just talk about the original article instead of this repost, instead. Maybe the URL could be changed to [0]? [0] https://medium.com/@kjmorenz/is-it-really-just-sexism-an-alt...

Ok, we've changed to that from https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4522. Let's focus on the author's own argument now please.
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