Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy • Hacker News Board

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#61

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

IAmEveryone wrote: post #43

someonehere wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the market for one. When you have two kids that are car seat age, two car seats eat up a lot of room in smaller cars. Then when you and your partner need to go somewhere, there’s barely any room for strollers and diaper bags. If they made roomier cars I’d be all for it, but they don’t. So I have to buy something that offers room. Some people don’t want to drive vans.

Families of four have comfortably taken even long journeys in VW Golfs in the past. I know, because my parents used to take us from northern Germany to Italy or Spain every summer. Not to mention there are plenty of towns and cities where families get around by bike. Americans need to expect more from local governments!

>Families of four have comfortably taken even long journeys in VW Golfs in the past

New car buyer are skewing richer and richer so a larger fraction of the people OEMs have to cater to can justify the luxury of not doing that.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#62

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

savrajsingh wrote: post #17

lousken wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Ride height and cool factor. Minivans have ~the same ride height and even more utility (space) if you don’t off-road but lack the cool factor.

Compare the prices of minivans to crossovers. That's why people aren't buying minivans in droves.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#63

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #3

lousken wrote: post #2

[flagged]

As a 30 year old, I buy an SUV (well, a crossover, technically) because its a good average between efficiency and carrying capacity. I don't want to have to rent a U-Haul every time I move something bigger than a breadbox. Two adult homes can presumably have a big car and a small car, and prefer to take the most efficient choice for the given trip (and have the shorter commute take the less efficient vehicle), but ge…

>I don't want to have to rent a U-Haul every time I move something bigger than a breadbox.

Thanks to ever more stringent rollover requirements modern vehicles can carry some pretty big things on the roof. You just have to ignore the part where people judge you for it (so I understand why people don't do it).

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#64

Post by semi-extrinsic » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #59

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a thing where station wagons are less and less practical. If you compare a mid 90s Volvo 940 to the latest Volvo V90, the reduction in interior space, exterior visibility and in practicality is huge. Seems to be mostly caused by the trifecta of safer cars (thicker doors etc), better aerodynamics and more styling/design taking up space and making windows smaller.

Crossovers are basically wagons with the exterior dimensions inflated to keep interior dimensions constant in the face of ever thickening pillars, doors and body structures.

No, I don't think so. If you look at the good ole' Volvo 940 wagon, you get 990 L cargo capacity with all seats in use. A new RAV4 (big crossover) has 580 L in the configuration with the biggest trunk. It's shrunk by 40%.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#65

Post by kikoreis » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

georgeburdell wrote: post #51

agensaequivocum wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a disgusting thing to say to someone with children. It's also not true.

It’s almost trivially true, albeit uncomfortable.

In aggregate, perhaps yes, less children leads to a healthier planet today. But individually, was it worse for the planet you or I were born? Your comment doesn't help us reach any useful conclusion. The reality is complex. Like with most health related topics, individual decisions don't count for much in defining populational growth. Policy and economics and religion control.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#66

Post by tzs » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #10

No one will care when an Explorer gets 20-25 mpg and gas is still under $2.50/gallon. The comfort and utility advantages more than outweigh any possible long-term externalities in the ordinary calculus.

> No one will care when an Explorer gets 20-25 mpg and gas is still under $2.50/gallon.

I was curious if their fuel efficiency is really that low. I've only been interested in smaller SUVs (I've got a Honda CR-V) which are up to around 28 mpg city, 34 highway for current models.

So I went to Ford's site to check. On the page for the Explorer [1] I can't find fuel efficiency info! Searching for "mpg" on the page (or on the pages for specific models) shows hits but Firefox does not actually show them. Disabling styles and doing again finds that those mentions are just in standard disclaimer footnotes.

Even more interesting is this page [2], which lists all Ford SUVs and crossovers. All of the gas powered ones (Ecosport, Escape, Edge, Expedition, and Flex) except for Explorer list their fuel efficiency right there.

Ford seems to be specifically avoiding listing Explorer gas mileage. Expedition is 17/24 city/highway and Flex is 16/23, so it's not like they are unwilling to list low numbers. So what is going on with Explorer?

[1] https://www.ford.com/suvs/explorer/

[2] https://www.ford.com/new-suvs-crossovers/

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#67

Post by signal11 » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #46

signal11 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading somewhere that the biggest buyers of SUVs (albeit compact SUVs) are mothers / young parents who think minivans are too ugly. SUVs have lots of space for kids and a large boot to take everything from bicycles to shopping. And of course the better SUVs do have lots of safety features. Car manufacturers know this, which is why 7-seater SUVs are now a thing. Luckily they’re also working on hybrid and e…

Unless you have 3+ children, why would you need anything larger than a five-door car for basic errands/travel with family?

7 seaters are intended for those who frequently do pooled trips with friends or family -- and won't buy a minivan. They're not necessarily much larger than 5-seaters, the extra seats fold down when not needed and use up the boot space.

As you say, 5 seaters are probably fine for most people.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#68

Post by thrower123 » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

shrubble wrote: post #27

Buying an SUV is sometimes due to network effects. If you are in a sedan, it isn't high enough to allow you to see traffic through the windshields of the SUV ahead of you, it's not much different than being behind an 18-wheeler. So as a defensive maneuver, you also buy an SUV...

The smaller class of SUVs are still smaller than the station wagons and large sedans they replaced. And the larger SUVs have mostly replaced minivans, which have curiously disappeared from the roads. It's kind of a wash, if you look a little closer.

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#69

Post by noonespecial » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

DataWorker wrote: post #42

throwaway53678 wrote: post #41

I have one hypothesis for part of the uptick: rear seat room for carseats. I consider myself the SUV hater of SUV haters, and I reject that you need one when you have kids (such is the idea in my part of the US), but...we bought one last year anyway, mainly to accommodate two rear-facing carseats with two adults in the front. There aren’t many cars that make this work, and you’d be surprised how big of an SUV you hav…

Pretty sure having kids is worse for the planet than driving an suv. The rest of your post makes sense though.

Then again, if nobody has kids then who are we saving the planet for ecactly?

Re: Soaring SUV sales keep carmakers on collision course with climate policy

#70

Post by ocdtrekkie » Sun, Jan 12, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #36

ken wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the research I've seen, that's not a significant factor. People aren't dying in their compact cars sitting at intersections. Sure, sometimes it happens -- and sometimes a semi or train hits you and even an SUV won't help. According to the IIHS, for example, the little 2-door Honda Civic has about the same fatality rate as the safest large SUVs. People in small cars aren't "taking a big risk". About as many peopl…

Flu deaths are concentrated on the very young and very old, though. The fundamental connection: people who drive SUVs and people who skip flu shots don't care about externalities.

Indeed true that I'm extremely low risk for flu complications, though I live with someone at high risk, and should get flu shots now.

It's not that I don't care about externalities, but that I'm going to weigh them against direct concerns. It's true driving an SUV might have a small percentage impact on the environment. It's also true that it slightly increases my chances of killing someone else in an accident. But if it significantly decreases the chance the person killed in said accident is my wife/kid, I'm going to prioritize that over the "dangers" SUVs provide to others.