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Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

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Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#111

Post by SamReidHughes »

fzeroracer wrote: post #83
SamReidHughes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because she was skipping meetings with her probation officer, you can infer she hasn't paid her debt to society. Not to mention, you know, the actual debt that she owed.

I don't care about the particulars of the individual and you focusing on that is clearly deliberate to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand. What I'm talking about is that these sort of facilities shouldn't exist at all, full stop. Do you think that people that say, couldn't afford to pay their speeding ticket right away should be thrown into prison until they pay their debt?

I agree, embezzlers with priors should get a 15 year minimum sentence. Instead, Husband got let out(!) and had to meet a $250/month minimum payment. Far too lenient.

It sounds to me like they’re actually trying to rehabilitate her. How much of her 7 year sentence has she actually served?

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#112

Post by rayiner »

fenomas wrote: post #73
rayiner wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt. No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong. > Where the debt comes from…

> The meaning of words matters. Sure, and (unless wikipedia is lying) the words "debtor's prison" have for centuries included the imprisonment of people unable to pay court-ordered judgments, as well as private debts. Per that definition, the article's usage is correct. (You can certainly make the argument that the situation described in the article doesn't meet the specific "contractual obligation" language in the E…

You’re misreading the article. To enforce a private debt, you have to sue and get a “court ordered judgment.” A debt by itself is not executable until you get a judgment. “Debtors prison,” consistent with the EuCHR definition, historically referred to putting people in prison for failure to pay a court ordered judgement arising out of a private debt, i.e. “a contextual obligation.”

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#113

Post by dfawcus »

rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

> The EU Convention on Human Rights bans debtors prisons.

FWIW it is the "European Convention on Human Rights", drafted in 1950, usually abbreviated as ECHR (with its court being ECtHR). It is distinct from the EU, being a product of the Council of Europe.

Whereas the founding document for the EU (Treaty of Rome) was signed in 1957.

As for the EU, it has its own "Charter of Fundamental Rights", somewhat based upon the ECHR, but I can't spot a reference to debts or contractual obligations.

The ECHR would not forbid this Mississippi practice, as Articles 4 and 5 allow it. Similarly Articles 5 & 6 of EU CFR would also seem to allow this practice (read the explanatory notes).

Please clarify just what Convention, or Charter it is you are referring to, and which body created it.

ECHR - https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Collection_Convention_195...

Article 4 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_4_of_the_European_Conv...

Article 5 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_5_of_the_European_Conv...

EU CFR - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=OJ:...

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#114

Post by ChoGGi »

cam_l wrote: post #61
rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

Maybe the reason they would argue this is a debtors prison and not merely a matter arising from a criminal conviction is that she was ordered to pay back money which she had not, and therefore was remanded to the debtors prison. If she had the money, and paid it back, I would argue this would not have happened. The restitution centre is literally there to pay back debts, and not of the 'to society' kind. But also to…

Maybe the reason they would argue this is a debtors prison and not merely a matter arising from a criminal conviction is that she was ordered to pay back money which she had not, and therefore was remanded to the debtors prison.

She went to jail because she stopped going to her probation appointments.

She said her probation officers threatened her: "Next time you come in and you don’t have any money, you’re going to jail."

Fearing she would be thrown in prison for nonpayment, she stopped reporting.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#115

Post by nickthemagicman »

jdsully wrote: post #35
pasttense01 wrote: post #28

"Looking back, Husband said she was punished for being poor..." Nonsense: she was punished for embezzling $11,000 from her place of employment.

At first I nodded in agreement. Then I wondered if someone had the $11,000 would they still be in jail?

Probably. They're doing jail time either way because that much money is a felony. This may actually be the compassionate outcome? Im not sure though.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#116

Post by paulddraper »

Zenbit_UX wrote: post #88
paulddraper wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At no point should be forced to work before or aftere they've already paid their "debt" to society Weird wording. The fact that the debt has not been paid is why they're working, no? My dad's accountant embezzled from his business. The person spent all the money over the years and by the the time they were caught, there was little left. And unfortunately, that's a pretty typical story. (FYI, business insurance may…

That really sucks for your dad and this may be hard for you to answer objectively given your proximity to the situation but imagine if the guy who robbed your dad got tossed into this place with $100k + court fees and maybe child support if he had kids. At minimum wage pay, with ~20% of his earnings going to pay down the debt that's effectively a life sentence. My question to you is, does that seem fair for what is e…

> does that seem fair

It seems the very definition of equitable.

(That said, I do think that the restitution amount can be adjusted, and courts do that. I object to the idea that 0% is appropriate.)

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#117

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

[deleted]

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#118

Post by BubRoss »

ecoled_ame wrote: post #98
BubRoss wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how the majority of humanity has come into existence.

I know, it’s one of the saddest aspects of existence in my opinion. I wish every child was planned for, had a job and housing lined up for them before birth. Instead we live in a random survival free-for-all. Sex is seen practically as a recreational activity, children as either unintentional accumulated byproducts or vague milestones of personal or economic achievement.

You can wish all you want, it doesn't change reality.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#119

Post by JamesBarney »

rtpg wrote: post #47
rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

If you are fined $20,000 for a thing and are unable to pay, you end up in a prison and are forced to work off your debt. This is functionally what debtors prisons were used for From the wiki summary: > Destitute persons who were unable to pay a court-ordered judgment would be incarcerated in these prisons until they had worked off their debt via labour or secured outside funds to pay the balance

Say I did a bunch of work for your company. And you stiff me for $10,000. I can't just go immediately seize your back account. I first have to establish in the court of law that you owe me money.

So I'd sue you and the judge would award me $10,000. But he would award me the $10,000 as court ordered judgement which is the legal instrument that proves you owe me money.

So that line doesn't mean quite what you think it means.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#120

Post by JamesBarney »

jdsully wrote: post #69
rayiner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convictions for theft and embezzlement usually have two separate punishments: imprisonment and restitution (give back what you stole). As to the restitution part only, being able to pay back the money can avoid imprisonment related to the restitution judgment. But there is nothing unfair about that.

Paying restitution is one thing, being forced to stay in jail while paying it back is quite another. Normally these cases are handled with garnished wages.

The idea that if you give back what you stole your punishment will be lessened is as old as theft.
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