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Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

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Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#41

Post by rayiner »

jdsully wrote: post #35
pasttense01 wrote: post #28

"Looking back, Husband said she was punished for being poor..." Nonsense: she was punished for embezzling $11,000 from her place of employment.

At first I nodded in agreement. Then I wondered if someone had the $11,000 would they still be in jail?

Convictions for theft and embezzlement usually have two separate punishments: imprisonment and restitution (give back what you stole). As to the restitution part only, being able to pay back the money can avoid imprisonment related to the restitution judgment. But there is nothing unfair about that.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#42

Post by rayiner »

alphabettsy wrote: post #33
thaumasiotes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think failing to pay a debt is a "crime" under American law. Edit: reading the article, these people have failed to pay the fines associated with criminal convictions.

People are regularly jailed for civil infractions such as traffic tickets, and failing to pay fines from such infractions. They are also held on bail when they cannot afford to pay, this is before found guilty of any crime.

Traffic tickets in many states are criminal violations. Here in Maryland, for example, there are no civil infractions except for automated red light cameras. Even a normal speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#43

Post by wavefunction »

romwell wrote: post #39
rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt . Where the debt comes from matters why exactly? The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer. If someone is dangerous enough to be in prison, they should not be out regardless of whether they owe money or not. In other words, if you can't buy your way out of prison, a debt should not bring you into one.

I will expand upon your point. Debt in this case is a civil matter between two private individuals. The State has an interest only, if that, in enforcing court decisions such as garnishment of wages or liens. To sentence someone to jail or prison for the crime of a civil disagreement is sick and wrong and I invite you (abstract yous) to prove me wrong via rhetoric.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#45

Post by rayiner »

romwell wrote: post #39
rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt . Where the debt comes from matters why exactly? The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer. If someone is dangerous enough to be in prison, they should not be out regardless of whether they owe money or not. In other words, if you can't buy your way out of prison, a debt should not bring you into one.

> Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt.

No. The meaning of words matters. Words, used precisely, are how people with different values and beliefs can communicate and reach agreements in a functioning society. When journalists, who are supposed to inform and educate the public, twist the meaning of words in order to make a point, that’s wrong.

> Where the debt comes from matters why exactly?

Because a debt arising from a criminal conviction requires the convicted person to have engaged in a wrongful act in the first place. Mere failure to pay a civil debt does not.

> The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer

Views about the proper role of prisons vary widely. Most people believe that prisons are for punishing people for doing bad things. Note that by your reasoning, many people who do very bad things should not be imprisoned because there is no risk of recidivism. Women who murder their abusive husbands, for example, are almost never going to go and murder someone else. By your reasoning, they shouldn’t go to prison to punish them for their murder.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#46

Post by duxup »

dpau wrote: post #30
giancarlostoro wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that regard sure we arent the best. But there are far worse countries.

I find it sad to see this type of argument, increasingly it seems our only justification for the decline of the US is, "At least we're not as bad as X." As in, "Sure companies and the gov sell all our data, but at least we're not like China!". Feels like we've given up even trying to live up to our liberal Western ideals...

It's not a justification for anything.

It is a response providing perspective to questions like "but are we much better?"

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#47

Post by rtpg »

rayiner wrote: post #36

> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons?…

If you are fined $20,000 for a thing and are unable to pay, you end up in a prison and are forced to work off your debt.

This is functionally what debtors prisons were used for

From the wiki summary:

> Destitute persons who were unable to pay a court-ordered judgment would be incarcerated in these prisons until they had worked off their debt via labour or secured outside funds to pay the balance

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#48

Post by rtpg »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #20
Nextgrid wrote: post #7

The more I read about "justice" in the US the more I realise how fucked up and perverted the concept of justice is in that country. We're always quick to criticise other countries for the failings or bad design of their justice system and lack of respect for human rights, but are we much better? We might be better on paper, but is that actually reflected in reality? I'm not so sure.

If you get convicted for embezzlement , as in the first example in the article, and don't pay your fines and restitution, what do you think the courts should do?

Wage garnishing is easy? If you have an employer then now they are on the hook for following through as well.

Hell, shut down the restitution centers and use that budget to help cover court fees instead!

Think about it: if someone gets fined $10,000 and is working minimum wage, is there really anything good accomplished by trying to recover that much? Just cap out some wage garnishment scheme if you want to fine them.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#49

Post by toasterlovin »

wavefunction wrote: post #43
romwell wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Potato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt . Where the debt comes from matters why exactly? The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer. If someone is dangerous enough to be in prison, they should not be out regardless of whether they owe money or not. In other words, if you can't buy your way out of prison, a debt should not bring you into one.

I will expand upon your point. Debt in this case is a civil matter between two private individuals. The State has an interest only, if that, in enforcing court decisions such as garnishment of wages or liens. To sentence someone to jail or prison for the crime of a civil disagreement is sick and wrong and I invite you (abstract yous) to prove me wrong via rhetoric.

According to the information in this thread, the amount owed was for a criminal conviction for embezzlement. This is not about a contract between private parties.

Re: Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi

#50

Post by throwaway838475 »

The US has the highest real incarceration per capita on the planet except Seychelles, mostly for nonviolent crimes that were instituted (War on Drugs) by Nixon to attack the poor, minorities and other “opponents.” Also consider the number of for-profit prisons and the prison industrial complex that runs transportation, staffing and internal services for the public prisons.

It’s also worth carefully re-reading the text of the 13th amendment. The giant slavery loophole is as-intended. The Union lost the Civil War while it got to declare “Mission Accomplished” because Abraham Lincoln sold-out civil society. Slavery continues as corporations profit by exploiting cheap labor paid on average under $1/hour. Systematic disenfranchisement is profitable.

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