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Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

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Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#41

Post by asdfqwer234 »

vkou wrote: post #4

Is this because you can't make money off short-term scooter rentals (Because the cost of providing this service is > what customers are willing to pay), or because other startups ate their lunch? My wife is seriously considering a scooter (Even a non-electrified one) for her commute (2-3 days a week, 5 miles) - and I can't see a world where we'd rent one on the daily, as opposed to owning. My uninformed guess is: A p…

I was able to rent a scooter from Bird for $25/month in a city and it cut my transportation cost from $170 to like $50. It eliminated ubers to/from events, public transit to/from work, bike rentals to/from gym. Definitely recommend owning a scooter

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#42

Post by bransonf »

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market?

Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common.

In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports.

I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to maintain any profitability, and the demand already sucks.

Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation?

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#43

Post by baby »

bduerst wrote: post #31
bransonf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll try to do the math here. Assuming the following: Cost to buy: $500 Cost to charge $0.40/day (maybe generous) Cost to Rent: $2/day Rental Mileage: $0.15/min Assume 10mph average, (10 miles/day) $9/day Total: $11/day to rent 2x/week,50 weeks 100 days (200 rides): Buy: $540 Rent: $1100 No way it’s economical to rent scooters routinely. Even if you break your scooter every 6 months, you can still save by buying a ne…

Even with that napkin math, the value to not have to own the asset, insure it against theft, or carry it around constantly is still worth it to some consumers. The spontaneity of "hop on and ride, then forget about it" is the appeal.

This. A friend of mine bought one but still rides some from times to times when its practical. He also owns a car but still rides uber from times to times.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#44

Post by jonas21 »

ghaff wrote: post #13

I do a lot of travel and, anecdotally, there seems to be a huge variation in popularity of rental scooters by city (even just considering the cities where one or more companies operate). Wide bike/pedestrian paths are probably one factor and weather is another. But they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious, at least to me.

> they seem very popular in some places and barely used in others for reasons that often aren't immediately obvious

I think a lot of this has to do with regulation. Some cities actively encouraged scooters and bikes, some took a hands-off approach, and others banned or restricted them to the level where it was difficult to operate.

You can really see the effect of this in San Diego, which at first welcomed the bikes and scooters, then reversed course and banned them in a lot of places [1]. Several of the companies left town after that happened, and you see a lot fewer bikes and scooters around now. It's still the same city, same weather, and there are more bike lanes than there were two years ago. The only thing that changed is the regulation.

[1] https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/environment/story/...

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#45

Post by sonofaplum »

vkou wrote: post #4

Is this because you can't make money off short-term scooter rentals (Because the cost of providing this service is > what customers are willing to pay), or because other startups ate their lunch? My wife is seriously considering a scooter (Even a non-electrified one) for her commute (2-3 days a week, 5 miles) - and I can't see a world where we'd rent one on the daily, as opposed to owning. My uninformed guess is: A p…

The bike vs. scooter thing is interesting (although a non electrified scooter would NOT be a good idea, much harder than biking a comparable distance with a weirder, less efficient motion).

I think that objectively a bike is a much better option for longer trips like this. Both in terms of efficiency and safety. I'd be VERY surprised if on a per mile basis, scooters weren't much more dangerous than bikes.

However, scooters FEEL safer for non-regular bike riders because you are closer to the ground, the helmet feels more optional (though it should not be) and riding on the sidewalk, where you are away from cars, feels like more of an option on a scooter than on a bike (although again, it shouldn't be).

I'd certainly advise a bike if the route is at all flat, and an e-bike if it isn't, but I can understand why that seems like a less appealing choice to some.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#46

Post by Johnny555 »

dustinmoris wrote: post #36
Johnny555 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the advantage of rental is the ability to drop off or pick up anywhere -- you can ride a scooter to the office, walk or bus to a restaurant after work, then rent a different scooter home. Or you might take a scooter from work to the restaurant, and you don't need to worry about parking the rental scooter securely or carrying it around with you. But that only works if scooters are ubiquitous enough that you ca…

This model works with cars (e.g. ZipCar) but with scooters I don't see how this is possible, unless the entire city is quite literally littered with scooters. If I have to walk 5-10 min to the nearest car which I can unlock from my phone and then use to drive 5 miles somewhere then it's great, but if I have to walk 5-10 minutes to the nearest scooter pickup so I can scooter somewhere for 5-10 minutes then it sort of…

If you have to walk 3 blocks for a scooter, then they really aren't "ubiquitous", I'm not a scooter user, but they seem to litter the sidewalks around here, so it's usually only a 1 or 2 minute walk.

As you said, if it's much longer than that, then there's no point -- I don't think I'd want to ride a scooter more than a mile or so anyway, so if it takes me 10 minutes to find one, I may as well just walk the whole way.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#47

Post by filoleg »

bosie wrote: post #6
vkou wrote: post #4

Is this because you can't make money off short-term scooter rentals (Because the cost of providing this service is > what customers are willing to pay), or because other startups ate their lunch? My wife is seriously considering a scooter (Even a non-electrified one) for her commute (2-3 days a week, 5 miles) - and I can't see a world where we'd rent one on the daily, as opposed to owning. My uninformed guess is: A p…

5 miles one way? Genuine question but why would you want to commute 5 miles on a scooter multiple times a week compared to a bicycle?

In certain cities, that might actually be faster than driving.

Me and my friends accidentally ended up testing that theory in LA. We were going to koreatown from Santa Monica and had about 10 miles left. Half of us decided to use limebikes, another half ended up taking uber. The people on limebikes arrived at about the same time, despite the whole scooter group having to stop every 30-40 minutes and search for another scooter, since in a group of 5 people riding those, there would inevitable be one that is running out of charge in that time interval.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#48

Post by samatman »

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

Too much money, chasing not enough alpha.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#49

Post by john_moscow »

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

>Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation?

Because VCs get paid from selling the shares to the public. So as long as a general unsophisticated investor is expected to buy in, it's a good deal for a VC, even if the underlying business model is laughable.

Re: Lime shuts in 12 markets, lays off around 100

#50

Post by rurp »

bransonf wrote: post #42

Does anyone actually think this is a profitable market? Electric scooters are expensive, repair and charging is expensive. It’s a seasonal business. Vandalism/abuse is fairly common. In terms of any environmental benefit, I highly suspect more gasoline is being consumed to collect and distribute scooters than the offset of a few last mile transports. I suspect the cost to the consumer would have to double for it to m…

> Why did the VCs value these as billion dollar companies? Desperation?

That's my guess. 10+ years of very low interest rates and wealthy people having more and more free cash seems to have led to a lot of crazy valuations in tech investing and elsewhere.

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