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DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

bbc.com

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Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#101

Post by jml7c5 »

Unfortunately, many people in the DRC do not believe that the ebola vaccine is effective or safe (or that ebola is a real problem). [1]

Fortunately, general acceptance of vaccines in the DRC is quite high: "Confidence in vaccines in general was high and most respondents believed that vaccines work (899 [90·7%, 95% CI 87·0–93·4) and are safe (852 [88·5%, 85·4–91·0])." [1]

[1]: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... (DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(19)30063-5 )

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#102

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bipson wrote: post #78
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I don't know anyone whose personally got an ongoing condition attributed to a vaccine. Scarlett fever vaccine (decades ago) made me very ill. Flu vaccine this year seemed (it could be coincidental) to make one of my children ill enough to be off school. These are expected consequences. It's also expected that some few people will die and others will have life altering conditions. These vaccines should still be u…

Why adding the last paragraph, in particular the first sentence of it? Although I can't prove the sentence incorrect as such, it is stated in such a vague and alarmist way, that it could easily taken as an example of fueling the FUD?

What's the problem, you don't believe vaccination causes any harm, ever? Just look up a vaccine (eg https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/1159), febrile seizures, conjunctivitis, anorexia, etc., even just the vaccination might render someone dead/hospitalised through anaphylaxis.

You know crossing the road can kill too. You'll probably be fine, but I'm not going to lie and say you'll never be the one who gets hit. If I did lie to you, then you heard about someone getting hit, you should then not trust me and be hesitant about taking advice from me. Now, do you see how this works with something like flu vaccine? "It's perfectly safe" and "≥10%" get minor illness from it are not the same thing - saying the former when the evidence supports the latter means someone won't trust you for health advice even if you're objectively the best source because they can no longer be as objective about it.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#103

Post by fat_turdsicle »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #62
baybal2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a prisoner's dilemma, it's an idiot's dilemma. Confronting public idiocy saves lives, literally. I'm intolerant to idiocy, and will shoo away any loonie I come upon, sometimes physically.

Vaccines can kill or have hugely deleterious consequences for some. The Tetra Fluenz flu vaccine, according to UK medical authorities, has some negative effects (flu like symptoms, not just a pain in the arm) on ≥1:10 recipients, https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/29112 . The problem with the simplistic "just get vaccinated" approach is when it fails you've nothing to fall back on because you weren't honest to…

Downvote this poster's perfectly legitimate concerns! Even better, could an admin please censor this post immediately?

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#104

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bipson wrote: post #90
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccines can kill or have hugely deleterious consequences for some. The Tetra Fluenz flu vaccine, according to UK medical authorities, has some negative effects (flu like symptoms, not just a pain in the arm) on ≥1:10 recipients, https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/29112 . The problem with the simplistic "just get vaccinated" approach is when it fails you've nothing to fall back on because you weren't honest to…

Could you stop mingling "flu like symptoms" with "serious ongoing consequences"? Every single Flu-vaccine has a high probability of showing flu-like symptoms. These are from a medicinal standpoint nothing compared to the seriousness of the real flu. Even MMR-Vaccines are expected to cause a harmless form of "vaccine-measles", which can show up as mild rash, low fever, etc. Again, no these are not to be concerned abou…

For sure, confusion was not intended.

People act as if vaccination is perfect and has no risks and that people who try and consider the risks are thus stupid.

>"These vaccination-associated symptoms are widely harmless"

So, mild symptoms are mild, got you.

But you accept that there are people getting life altering illnesses from vaccinations?

Eg https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/guillainbarre.htm says about 1-2 per million vaccinations.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#105

Post by y4mi »

danharaj wrote: post #99
raxxorrax wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better than nothing but flu vaccines have a bad effectiveness compared to almost all other vaccines. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.... It still is a bit of a gamble.

For the vast majority of people, there is no downside to getting the flu vaccine. A gamble implies there's something to lose.

By getting the shot you need to spend time and money.

Insurance doesn't really change this, because if everyone did it, the premiums would be increased. (No chance of the former, so I guess that's just a tiny wager)

So yeah, you always stand to lose something. It might be worth it to you though

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#106

Post by bluGill »

tzs wrote: post #95
bluGill wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. If you hadn't added "she thinks" to your sentence you would be correct - but the if condition is false (the risk is worse than 1/40) and so she should get the vaccine.

Where are you getting the measles risk from? All the numbers I can find put the risk of measles in the US at a couple of orders of magnitude lower than 1/40. About 1000 cases a year in a bad year, 320 million population, 80 year lifespan give about a 1/4000 chance of getting measles sometime over your lifespan.

This is complex. Measles risk depends on how many other people are vaccinated. Right now the US is above herd immunity rates meaning that for everybody the risk is insignificant. However we are close to a tipping point, if vaccination rates go much lower the risk for everybody increases dramatically (but how much I don't know). Note that risk for everybody is just that: for some vaccinated people the vaccination doesn't work (As I recall it is about 95% works) - the risk is drastically higher for the non-vaccinated of course.

If it is only one person in isolation asking this question the risk of vaccines is worse than the risk of the disease - but if more than one person asks this questions the risk of measles for everybody is higher.

There is also the risk that some mutation of the virus will evade the current vaccine. I don't know how big that risk is (the flu mutates such that a new vaccine is needed yearly), at which point everybody is vulnerable. If enough people are vaccinated the disease has many less opportunities for this and will die.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#107

Post by bipson »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #104
bipson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you stop mingling "flu like symptoms" with "serious ongoing consequences"? Every single Flu-vaccine has a high probability of showing flu-like symptoms. These are from a medicinal standpoint nothing compared to the seriousness of the real flu. Even MMR-Vaccines are expected to cause a harmless form of "vaccine-measles", which can show up as mild rash, low fever, etc. Again, no these are not to be concerned abou…

For sure, confusion was not intended. People act as if vaccination is perfect and has no risks and that people who try and consider the risks are thus stupid. >"These vaccination-associated symptoms are widely harmless" So, mild symptoms are mild, got you. But you accept that there are people getting life altering illnesses from vaccinations? Eg https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/guillainbarre.htm says about 1-2 per mil…

Why did you leave out this (essential) information that associates your cherry-picked statement?: (emphasis mine)

>The data on the association between GBS and seasonal flu vaccination are variable and inconsistent across flu seasons. If there is an increased risk of GBS following flu vaccination it is small, on the order of one to two additional GBS cases per million doses of flu vaccine administered.

They clearly never state your conclusion, they said 'If there is such an increased risk, it is incredibly small'.

Now the question is, why would you do that?

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#109

Post by mulmen »

andrepd wrote: post #75
booblik wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, what is the point of your comment? Are you saying people are not allowed to love their pets and should let them die, and not care for them when they are sick?

The life of ten thousand sick pets does not reach the value of one human life. I think the point of that comment was simply how some people have no access to basic medicine, while at the same time a team of highly trained people are dedicating their time and effort to saving a cat. Of course, this can be said of many things: jewelers, yacht - builders, sports car engineers.

> The life of ten thousand sick pets does not reach the value of one human life.

You don’t get to make that decision for anyone else.

Re: DR Congo measles: More than 6k dead in world's worst outbreak

#110

Post by beagle3 »

bluGill wrote: post #80
bipson wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here is the limitation " apparently ". Huge part of the needless discussion about the risks of vaccines happening in well educated parts of the population are misattributed effects of vaccines. Everyone I know apparently knows someone that has a child that has a serious condition because of a vaccination. Yeah, right, if it was so clear cut and widespread, these vaccines would be pulled from the market yest…

Most "Vaccine injured" children have a no vaccine related cause to their problems. It has become hip to blame autism on vaccines even though there is no relation. Something like 1 in million do have a serious side effect of the vaccine. This is far less than the 6000 dead in Congo because they don't have the vaccine, but it isn't zero. The fact that it is far less is reason to vaccinate anyway - but if doctors can de…

People who are immunocompromised or who have an autoimmune condition may get serious complications from vaccines. It is, in fact, a well known contraindication.

Some people do not know they are in one of those groups, and ARE likely to experience harm. These groups (unaware immune issues) are statistically insignificant compared to the entire population, of course.

But ignoring them is in fact contributing to the antivax movement; primes are statistically rare but if you told people they don’t exist, you would be working for the antimath movement.

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