Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#441

Post by vvanders » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

midnightclubbed wrote: post #195

vvanders wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standardizing crediting would be one close to my heart. Oh hell yeah. I did 3+ years on a title, nearly killing myself to ship it. When I realized that doing that much OT was doing to my personal relationships, health and sanity I left with a generous transition ~8mo before ship(including tossing 2.5mo of PTO because they didn't have to pay it out and I could never take it). Listed under "special thanks" as well, i…

With less and less titles shipping as boxed-product and very few of those having anything approaching an instruction booklet crediting is almost dead already. Some in-game credit screen buried in the options menu or after completing a 50+ hour campaign is about as un-readable as the end credits on a Netflix TV show. The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as…

Yeah except I knew many people in the industry who would cross reference mobygames when a resume came in and not all of our hires were with direct references.

Also this was a boxed retail title with no dlc so the credit list was pretty fixed.

I'm out of the industry now with no plans to ever return but the whole process just seemed pretty and spiteful. We worked just as hard during those 3 years as I did shipping other titles before that so I don't really buy that leaving early changes the title on which you worked as.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#442

Post by brozaman » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:11 AM UTC

theFeller00 wrote: post #263

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

I don't feel like I have any options. I've felt burned out for about four years now. Our tech stack is very old and my my interest in programming is near zero at this point. I feel like I'm just waiting out the inevitable. I don't live in SV or an area with more than a handful of companies who would provide a desirable job.

None of these issues can be solved by an union. Union won't make your job interesting, and won't make you like your job again.

It certainly won't help with any of the issues you describe.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by denkmoon » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #127

L_Rahman wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly they might actually be. It's game theoretically an efficient strategy because they can extract so much before the workers unionize that it'll still be cheaper than compensating them fairly all along.

Only if institutional myopia keeps them focused solely on the next quarter or two. The companies will learn that treating their employees fairly from the outset is cheaper than having a union force it upon them for the next 10 to 50 years.

How many micro-transaction laden titles can you shit out in 10 years?

What is the half-life of a game publisher/studio executive?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by awb » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:21 AM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #438

awb wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every power dynamic is inherently unbalanced and unfair to at least some degree, but I agree you want it to be as fair as possible as often as possible. I'd much rather see greater employee ownership in companies though rather than unions. Union and management negotiations are often a zero sum game. A win for one side is a loss for the other. And in between you can have damaging strikes or a breakdown in relationship…

I guess I agree in theory, but if ownership doesn't want to deal with a union, what makes you believe that your idea would be an easier sell? Unions are basically the compromise. > I'd much rather see greater employee ownership in companies though rather than unions. Union and management negotiations are often a zero sum game. A win for one side is a loss for the other. And in between you can have damaging strikes or…

Good points. I suppose employee ownership is better institutional policy from the outset. I'm not sure it would be an easy transition later in the life of the business.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by friendlybus » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

unapologetic wrote: post #437

friendlybus wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is a good place with good people in it. The perception of bad actors and bad intent is your worldview, not mine. You have too much to gain from painting the world as a bad place, it's not trustworthy. The innocent everyday man aiming to be king of the union has all the personal motive in the world to manufacture a utopian vision of worker's rights. The real world has good people bearing a cross of suffering…

They also have the incentive make those things happen. The boss doesn't. The boss has incentive cut costs and increase profits. Even if the current boss is good person, the next one might not be. Situation might change the boss might go after workers to save profits. We aren't on the same side of the table. Look at Google. Good job, stable, good pay, solid benefits. Sounds great. They were also engaged in massive wag…

Some of the biggest companies in the American tech space value things other than money as the highest priority. Steve Jobs famously was product focused and warned against excessive greed.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/664366-if-you-keep-your-eye...

Elon Musk poured his own money into his projects to the point of becoming bankrupt and was helped out by others who believed in the product.

Cutting costs is the antithesis of what these guys are doing, making outrageous profit is the marketeers and advertisers that came to slash and burn Apple. These guys making reasonable profits and achieving good things are doing so at the expense of greed. The world is a good place.

Google's "don't be evil" has left me uncomfortable when combined their actions.

Cadbury pushed a whole bunch of innovative workplace conditions and purchased a collection of houses to supply the workforce, without the pressure or installation of unions.

https://www.cadbury.com.au/About-Cadbury/The-Story-of-Cadbur...

There will always be a fundamental conflict between what the worker can get from a company and what the company can get for it's goals. Unions can't change that and nor can bosses. We can see the good in the world for what it is.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by conanbatt » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

metalliqaz wrote: post #150

conanbatt wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the only way a union can raise wages for its members. But that won't work in the video game industry, there's no barriers to the industry.

"no barriers to the industry" lol

You can make a game and publish for $$ in a day. In fact, many people do.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by elihu » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 1:51 AM UTC

For what it's worth, here's the direct link to the Communication Workers of America's CORE campaign website: https://www.code-cwa.org/

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#448

Post by arrosenberg » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

awb wrote: post #444

arrosenberg wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I agree in theory, but if ownership doesn't want to deal with a union, what makes you believe that your idea would be an easier sell? Unions are basically the compromise. > I'd much rather see greater employee ownership in companies though rather than unions. Union and management negotiations are often a zero sum game. A win for one side is a loss for the other. And in between you can have damaging strikes or…

Good points. I suppose employee ownership is better institutional policy from the outset. I'm not sure it would be an easy transition later in the life of the business.

I have actually seen that a few times, but it's mostly small local businesses. Modern Times Brewery recently implemented that kind of program. At the end of the day, the owners have all the power to make that decision.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#449

Post by Tiktaalik » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

midnightclubbed wrote: post #406

CydeWeys wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is unsympathetic to the millions of creative professionals who deserve credit for their work. It's about a lot more than just a list of names. Authors get credit for their books. Everyone who works on a film gets credit for their contribution. This goes into your CV, resume, IMDB, whatever. It's important.

I understand but I don't see the industry going back to boxes 30 page with instruction books. Having an industry approved crediting scheme would be wonderful but for the most part the only people viewing it is going to be people on the credits. No games industry recruiter looks at a resume and verify names against the in-game credits (or even IMDB) - they will check against references and people they know that you ma…

It's simply an issue of respect. That's it.

It's incredibly disrespectful to sweep away the efforts of workers that are responsible for the product and to pretend it didn't happen.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

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Post by run414 » Wed, Jan 08, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

I don't understand how a union would function in the video game industry. I don't work at a video game company myself, but I have some friends that do. The typical life-cycle of a video game is:

- A small group of developers work on the core physics engine, graphics engine, and high-level game design.

- When the core game engine is sufficiently developed, the number of artists and game designs greatly increases to generate the art, sound, and level designs for the game.

- As the game reaches an alpha stage, the number of QA testers is dramatically increased.

- After the game is released, almost all of the QA and art people are let go, with a small number retained to work on DLC. A core group of software developers will be kept to be begin work on the next game, and the cycle repeats.

How does a union function when much of the workforce is only going to work for the company for less than 2 years? Many QA testers work for less than year.