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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#431

Post by mbostleman »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181
bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

It's Ok because employees are carrying short term debt, not equity. They don't participate in that upside you're referring to. And, conversely, they are not exposed to the downside either. There are numerous options available for those employees to have equity in that or many other companies if they're willing to risk their capital.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#432

Post by yibg »

Apocryphon wrote: post #425
yibg wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure, should they? Seems like workers would want to work at a place if they're fairly compensated (in contrast to increasing with company profits), treated well and enjoy their job. Sure you can reward employees for good company performance, and many do in forms of bonuses, equity growth etc, but 1) it's not required and 2) it's not directly correlated to company profits. I mean, if a company won a "lottery",…

Is it financially beneficial to a company? Maybe not, unless as a means to incentivize employee retention and attract high performers. Is it something that should happen in a conceptual/philosophical/ethical sense? Perhaps as corporations become more productive and profitable while requiring fewer workers, due to technological advances, automation, etc.- perhaps this should be discussed? Why should compensation struc…

Not frozen in amber, but perhaps linked to something else like performance, expertise, experience etc. If we're talking about this as a means of wealth distribution then that seems like it should be something at the government policy level.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#433

Post by erik998 »

blululu wrote: post #49

There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…

I think something like SAG-AFTRA would be the perfect model. We already function as actors... We audition for coding roles... The recruiters are like managers... Most roles are for 1.5 years...

If the major FAANG companies had an association called the Software Development Industry... Programmers would join a Software Developers Guild... Annually the guild would negotiate with the Software Development Industry and create daily minimum rates, safe working conditions, and worker protections for software developers. (what kind of protections... I think assuring workers can operate and compete freely... No anti competitive behaviors such as refraining from soliciting one another’s employees in order to avert a salary war)

If FAANG doesn't do it, I would not be surprised other firms push for it as a way to compete for talent.

Imagine, instead of figuring out cap tables and trying to prevent getting screwed by dilution... imagine if that task was delegated to the Guild and they could hire people to negotiate for that and monitor that on an ongoing basis.

Imagine if those options could be captured in a defined benefit plan or packaged in some other way where professionals could be hired to manage the risks inherent with taking options from a startup.

I think too many people think about dockworkers and construction workers when unions are discussed. Please review the SAG agreements here:

https://www.sagaftra.org/files/20172020wagesTV.pdf

https://www.wrapbook.com/essential-guide-sag-rates/#SAG%20Te...

If you are a great programmer you might charge 8x the daily minimum. No one is forcing you to accept the minimum, but you should not have to accept anything below the minimum.

If you could delegate tasks to the guild to monitor the financial health of your employer, manage your stock option negotiation, and negotiate a daily minimum each year... you could offload a lot complicated issues and at least focus on your work... At a certain point a manager could assist with these tasks as well, especially if you are 8x the daily minimum.

The daily minimum is to make sure no one takes advantage of people (ie, young employees at startups)...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#434

Post by Apocryphon »

friendlybus wrote: post #155

Here is a direct example of unions slowing down the little guy in the entertainment industry: https://youtu.be/LRVwlif6th0?t=171 Niko has to cut costs to make low budget films and the union mandates someone watch the camera feed for the director, completely unnecessarily in the modern era. The film industry is notorious for the boundaries around union and non-union work. Gary Oldman's decline of a role in Star Wars u…

It's neither here nor there, but Oldman dodged a bullet by not participating in The Revenge of the Sith.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#435

Post by unapologetic »

unapologetic wrote: post #299
username90 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. No we don't, that is called slavery.

We still have actual slavery and wage slavery isn't much better.

Which part of this is wrongthink to the HN overlords?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#436

Post by TheCoelacanth »

scarejunba wrote: post #418
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a union can't form an exclusivity agreement with a company, then all exclusivity agreements between any type of organization should be banned. That would be true freedom of association. Right-to-work laws just take away the right of workers to negotiate on the same terms that businesses do.

Oh no, I think they should have the right to negotiate an exclusivity agreement. And if the business takes it, so be it. I don't think they should be allowed to impose that agreement on the business through law. When you come here, I will scab you, and picket them if they consider signing exclusivity with you. And that's okay. You can picket them for the opposite and eventually one of us will win.

I am unaware of any way for a union to compel a business to become exclusive without an agreement as described here[1]. Can you provide a citation for this?

[1] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/employee-...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#437

Post by unapologetic »

friendlybus wrote: post #415
unapologetic wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but you're still a boss and your opinions on unions should be treated as those of a potentially bad actor. That's just the way it works. I can't trust you to tell me a union is a bad idea. You have too much to gain by saying no.

The world is a good place with good people in it. The perception of bad actors and bad intent is your worldview, not mine. You have too much to gain from painting the world as a bad place, it's not trustworthy. The innocent everyday man aiming to be king of the union has all the personal motive in the world to manufacture a utopian vision of worker's rights. The real world has good people bearing a cross of suffering…

They also have the incentive make those things happen.

The boss doesn't. The boss has incentive cut costs and increase profits. Even if the current boss is good person, the next one might not be. Situation might change the boss might go after workers to save profits.

We aren't on the same side of the table.

Look at Google. Good job, stable, good pay, solid benefits. Sounds great.

They were also engaged in massive wage fixing and are now firing union activists.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#438

Post by arrosenberg »

awb wrote: post #339
arrosenberg wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a market to be both free and fair workers must have symmetric power and information with ownership and the customer. Otherwise the system is inherently unfair (in an economic sense) toward workers.

Every power dynamic is inherently unbalanced and unfair to at least some degree, but I agree you want it to be as fair as possible as often as possible. I'd much rather see greater employee ownership in companies though rather than unions. Union and management negotiations are often a zero sum game. A win for one side is a loss for the other. And in between you can have damaging strikes or a breakdown in relationship…

I guess I agree in theory, but if ownership doesn't want to deal with a union, what makes you believe that your idea would be an easier sell? Unions are basically the compromise.

> I'd much rather see greater employee ownership in companies though rather than unions. Union and management negotiations are often a zero sum game. A win for one side is a loss for the other. And in between you can have damaging strikes or a breakdown in relationships. It's an us vs. them mentality, which isn't great for teamwork.

While this is generally true in the US system, it's not inherently true. It's like any other relationship - if there is trust and mutual understanding, then a good union can make a company better than it would have otherwise been. If the union exists as a response to abusive ownership, then it should hardly be surprising that the parties go to war, but it's ownership that drives that divide.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#439

Post by UnpossibleJim »

burntoutfire wrote: post #272
Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

I don't really understand this obsession with credits in the game dev industry. There's no credit list in GMail for example, and yet everyone is fine with it?

The most cursory thing an employer can do is Google an prospective employee, and that will bring up title credits on games you've worked on. If you were to Google my name, for instance, as I don't have any social media presence other than LinkedIn, you only get game titles I'm in the credits of.
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