Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#191

Post by friendlybus » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

tomtheelder wrote: post #176

friendlybus wrote: post #155

Here is a direct example of unions slowing down the little guy in the entertainment industry: https://youtu.be/LRVwlif6th0?t=171 Niko has to cut costs to make low budget films and the union mandates someone watch the camera feed for the director, completely unnecessarily in the modern era. The film industry is notorious for the boundaries around union and non-union work. Gary Oldman's decline of a role in Star Wars u…

We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. Unions can certainly do harm, and you are right that they shouldn't be seen as a pure and irreproachable force for good, but small anecdotes about individual bad decisions made by unions are not useful in discussions about this. In fact, they play to the already ridiculously anti-union sentiment that the vast majority of Americans (this article is a…

This is a weird claim to make in the games industry. The vast amounts of cash Fortnite made for Epic is being poured back into buying up indie games and supplying a better store for game sales and creating a better game engine that anyone can pick up and use for 5% of sales. It is empowering the little guy way more than could be imagined in the past. Is that 100% of their revenue? No, but it is well above what anyone could hope for 10 years ago. You used to require hundreds of thousands of dollars in licenses to even see the tools used. People are getting good jobs training off these tools as we speak and releasing new innovative products.

I understand working conditions in the US sucks and I hold no bones about fixing them. The union is an infinite tool that will not stop at fixing engineering conditions. It has the ability to own the industry. That is not an outcome I want to see, I'd prefer to give 50% of my salary to whoever wants it than have a union tell me how to run what I do.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#192

Post by fennecfoxen » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:00 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

This is the wrong number. The average revenue per employee isn't what determines a wage, even when the employees are fully interchangeable: it's the marginal revenue brought in by each extra employee.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#193

Post by AJ007 » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

noirbot wrote: post #163

aabeshou wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but why would a union negotiate a deal that bankrupts their small studio? That's against their own self-interest.

I think the question is "Is there a better deal that's possible without bankrupting the studio?" When it comes to it, a lot of game companies are essentially running like startups, but without the massive gluts of VC funding to give them runway. It's questionable how much small-to-mid-sized studios can increase costs without making it all the more risky that a single underperformance kills the studio. Obviously, this…

I think there are a lot of poor analogies and comparisons being made to Hollywood. AAA linear game development accompanied by massive sustained growth in production budgets has made some segments of games look like Hollywood.

Some segments of game development may continue to look like that. However, the mix of procedural content generation, user generated content, a strong skilled global talent market, and the US being of piece of a much larger global sales pie, makes it look nothing like Hollywood.

Hollywood has traditional been very much an American cultural product dependent on American talent both on and off screen to produce. Games are neither.

The boom-bust cycle of studios is of course another matter. Games-as-a-service may appear to be more suitable for unionization but the end result may just improve the economics of user generated content marketplaces.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#194

Post by omarchowdhury » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

> but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth?

Does not Facebook also retain the right to hire employees willing to take less?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#195

Post by midnightclubbed » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

vvanders wrote: post #153

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> Standardizing crediting would be one close to my heart. Oh hell yeah. I did 3+ years on a title, nearly killing myself to ship it. When I realized that doing that much OT was doing to my personal relationships, health and sanity I left with a generous transition ~8mo before ship(including tossing 2.5mo of PTO because they didn't have to pay it out and I could never take it). Listed under "special thanks" as well, i…

With less and less titles shipping as boxed-product and very few of those having anything approaching an instruction booklet crediting is almost dead already. Some in-game credit screen buried in the options menu or after completing a 50+ hour campaign is about as un-readable as the end credits on a Netflix TV show.

The argument against you getting a full credit is that it would list your contribution to the game as the same as a colleague who worked through the ship process. I'm not sure how it works in the production side of the film industry but I imagine it is not dissimilar.

You definitely did the right thing by getting out and looking after yourself and those around you. The industry has and is responding to the loss of good people due to burn-out, not at every developer but some of the most notorious have realized the level of churn hurts their ability to hire and retain the best. The more push-back there is against the onerous work practices the more quickly they will stop.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#196

Post by tomtheelder » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #178

tomtheelder wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. Unions can certainly do harm, and you are right that they shouldn't be seen as a pure and irreproachable force for good, but small anecdotes about individual bad decisions made by unions are not useful in discussions about this. In fact, they play to the already ridiculously anti-union sentiment that the vast majority of Americans (this article is a…

> We live at the absolute _extreme_ of capital power over labor power. No we don't, that is called slavery.

Okay yes that's true. Within the bounds of modern capitalism we are at an extreme place.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#197

Post by embeddedpro » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #22

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

> it's not like you don't have options There's a catch-22 there, though - the more times you exercise your option (to move to a different job), the harder it is to exercise it the next time. Too many job changes is considered a negative.

Maybe. But every time I've changed jobs my pay increased 20 or 30k.

That means I'm doing higher demand work.

So at least my most recent skills are extremely valuable.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#198

Post by sailfast » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #192

jakelazaroff wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's use Facebook as an example. The median employee salary is $240,000 [1], but Facebook makes an average of $1,620,000 in revenue per employee [2]. Why is it okay for a company to extract a so much more money from an employee than they pay them, but not okay for employees to band together to get paid what they're worth? [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-median-pay-240000-2... [2] https://www.businessins…

This is the wrong number. The average revenue per employee isn't what determines a wage, even when the employees are fully interchangeable: it's the marginal revenue brought in by each extra employee.

I’d go further and say “marginal net revenue” rather than the gross.

Using a revenue number for this makes no sense.

Let’s ignore for now that this revenue also owes a great deal to the commons that is never paid back by most companies.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#199

Post by embeddedpro » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:09 PM UTC

friendlybus wrote: post #155

Here is a direct example of unions slowing down the little guy in the entertainment industry: https://youtu.be/LRVwlif6th0?t=171 Niko has to cut costs to make low budget films and the union mandates someone watch the camera feed for the director, completely unnecessarily in the modern era. The film industry is notorious for the boundaries around union and non-union work. Gary Oldman's decline of a role in Star Wars u…

I see unions good for established low skill workers.

Grind the years and that will lead to sucesss. No innovation or additional learning needed. Just wait.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#200

Post by bluGill » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 8:10 PM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #140

empath75 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best time to start a union is exactly when you're in hot demand and well compensated. That's when you have the most leverage.

I find this untrue. historically, unions represent jobs that are most at risk from replacement - e.g. by strikebreakers. Which is opposite end of the spectrum from 'hot demand and well compensated'. In fact, unionization are spurred by the opposite of these things.

If you are at risk of strikebreakers your union effort will fail (unless protected by law) because the strikebreakers will just take over your job.

When it would take some time to train the strikebreakers the union can work: give us our demands or spend far more training the strikebreakers.