Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#131

Post by jahaja » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground:

* A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry).

* No vacation.

* No parental leave.

* No sick leave.

* At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's already illegal!", very few people are willing/capable of mounting a messy legal case on their own).

...and so on.

What do you actually have to lose?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#132

Post by GoodJokes » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

[dead]

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#133

Post by false-mirror » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #97

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

There's definitely a tension. When employers can treat employees as disposable, there is more firing and thus (sometimes) more hiring.

However, unions increase the value of jobs. Union workers enjoy a better QOL and career stability, and they can actually build a life for themselves without worrying about being fired on a whimsy.

Luckily for something like game development, it is a growing industry with a low barrier to entry. Finding a job or starting a new company is very realistic-- until the next economic downturn, which will hurt union and non-union workers alike

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#134

Post by aabeshou » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #125

aabeshou wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a point, but I think what actually happens isn't so sure, because there are still market forces putting downward pressure on barriers to entry. So either: (1) The profit from abuse/exploitation gave a pure surplus, and the barriers to entry will remain the same but the surplus on the back will go down (2) There is no real surplus, the profit from abuse/exploitation was the only thing keeping barriers to entr…

The majority of development studios are relatively small and, if you follow industry news, bankruptcy is a routine occurrence; even some well known small and indie names are only one or two flops away from bankruptcy. Unions might be able to make headway against EA, Valve, or Activision but for the smaller studios, well, there is no surplus. You can't get blood from a stone no matter how hard you squeeze.

Yes, but why would a union negotiate a deal that bankrupts their small studio? That's against their own self-interest.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#135

Post by msla » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

What will unions do with Open Source development?

Let's say the unions get huge wins, make huge gains, and unionize essentially all programmers. They decide to call a strike. What happens to Linux development? What happens to tons of other OSS development? If a strike only affects closed-source software, that's an incentive for users to go Open Source, but it's also an incentive for unions to try and destroy it.

This isn't like the auto industry union vs shadetree mechanics, which was never a conflict because shadetree mechanics are fundamentally not a threat to the auto industry and its unions because the shadetree mechanics of the world can't make their own credible car as a hobbyist project.

The "shadetree mechanics" of the OSS world have made large chunks of a software ecosystem as a bunch of interconnected hobbyist projects, which is a distinct threat to the software industry's UAW-equivalent's ability to exert pressure on companies that make and sell software.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#136

Post by friendlybus » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

Independence. People work hard in video games because it's one of the last indie friendly industries. Unions can crush that in many different ways.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#137

Post by mdszy » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

Nothing, everyone just wants to bootlick their employer and/or has bought into the propaganda.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#138

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #97

Tiktaalik wrote: post #54

I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier

My observation has been the opposite. I believe because the unions have an interest in increasing their membership, not letting it atrophy and decrease due to time and deaths. A union that doesn't have a growing membership is a union that will disappear.

In fact, some unions I've seen have teams of people (including lawyers) whose sole purpose is taking illegal immigrants working in their industry and getting them properly documented and teaching them English for free so that they will eventually join the union.

Where I have seen this is in carpenters, bartenders, maids, food service, stagehands, and a few others. The industries you've seen may be different.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#139

Post by mempko » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

bob1029 wrote: post #5

I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…

Strange, actors, writer, and others in Hollywood are part of a union and they somehow get multi-million-dollar pay...

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#140

Post by Aperocky » Tue, Jan 07, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #71

Aperocky wrote: post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

The best time to start a union is exactly when you're in hot demand and well compensated. That's when you have the most leverage.

I find this untrue. historically, unions represent jobs that are most at risk from replacement - e.g. by strikebreakers. Which is opposite end of the spectrum from 'hot demand and well compensated'. In fact, unionization are spurred by the opposite of these things.