I thought unions were for low skilled workers that are easily replaceable. If you do this with higher level skill jobs, I think there is a strong risk of stagnating the growth of the industry by forcing companies to hire a certain way. Higher skill jobs are already in a position of good compensation and companies understand those employees are valuable. This includes programmers and such, but perhaps not artists (unfortunately). I can see a union for game artists and non-programming roles, as those would basically be lower skill level that can be easily replaced.
Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
121–130 of 513 posts
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#122I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". I agree that putting developers on death marches is antithetical to everything that is human, but it's not like you don't have options in this industry... Tech work isn't like coal mining where your health is legitimately at risk on a daily basis, and where the number of alternative options available to the average worker is low to n…
Most people lie about their compensation though. The average tech worker salary isn’t $300k like HN wants to believe. The reality is that this board is mostly made up of the outliers. For every person getting $150k in stock options and “feels like that’s on the low end because everyone they know gets more” there are 10 others who get nothing.
The reality is this board heavily trends towards SV and other tech hubs where salaries are outrageous and everyone is flush with choices for employers. Not everyone working in tech can walk into their local coffee shop and walk out with a job.
For the millions of tech workers who don't live in Seattle or Austin or the Bay Area, salaries are under $100k and your city only has a small handful of companies you can choose from. Good luck if they're not hiring at the exact moment you're looking for a new job.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#123I would strongly consider supporting a video game union, if only to help formalize the things that the good shops do and bring those practices industry wide. Personally I haven't done a day of overtime in seven years and I feel reasonably compensated but there are clearly other places out there that are still exploiting their workers. Improving worker input into production schedules and creating clear guidelines arou…
> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.
One key difference for unions is whether a job is project based or more of a permanent placement. The problems you mentioned are often a problem in the latter like with teacher or police unions. Project based workplaces are different in that they have a natural turnover and people need to be continually rehired so seniority or difficult to remove employees are less of a problem. The various unions in the entertainment industry are a good example of this. Video games are closer to the project based end of the spectrum.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. Not if you understand how unions work. Professional sports leagues have unions because they are necessary. There is exactly 1 league, and you’re required to sign exclusivity contracts with your team. You are owned by your team. You play for them, or you don’t play at all. You move your family to whatever shitty city bought your rights. Only rarely does a player get any say, unless they’re a superstar with a speci…
> There are many reasons for players to have unions, and none of them apply to software developers. There are analogs to some of the things you listed. For example, exclusivity contracts sounds a lot like non-compete agreements. You play for them, or you don't play at all sound like employment agreements where the employer demands rights to everything you create during your time of employment. You move your family to…
I think your analogs are superficial.
An NBA player have exactly one employer (the NBA) to work for.
I have far greater mobility career wise.
Nothing beats this difference.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
> " What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union? " Making game development more expensive, obviously, since ending the current abusive practices is going to cost the publishers and development studios more money plus the overhead imposed by the union itself. Unions may have their benefits but it's undeniable that there's a cost there.
You have a point, but I think what actually happens isn't so sure, because there are still market forces putting downward pressure on barriers to entry. So either: (1) The profit from abuse/exploitation gave a pure surplus, and the barriers to entry will remain the same but the surplus on the back will go down (2) There is no real surplus, the profit from abuse/exploitation was the only thing keeping barriers to entr…
The majority of development studios are relatively small and, if you follow industry news, bankruptcy is a routine occurrence; even some well known small and indie names are only one or two flops away from bankruptcy. Unions might be able to make headway against EA, Valve, or Activision but for the smaller studios, well, there is no surplus. You can't get blood from a stone no matter how hard you squeeze.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
I won’t comment on anything but the ageism. Most of the developers I work with are in there late 20s and early 30s. We’ve hired people in their 40s, 50s and 60s to join our team. According to those I’ve spoken with there really isn’t a challenge to find work - regardless of age. The caveat being everyone I spoke with was current on the latest languages, research, etc. If you stay current with the times you can find a…
Curious how are the 40,50,60 year old programmers working out for your team?
My experience with older programmers is they are generally a bit slower. However they typically bring to the table something much more valuable. Everything that's new, has been done before... and they've seen it done before. They know the pitfalls, they also know the shortcuts. Many of them are hesitant of adopting new technology, but when they do, it's usually bringing something significant to the table.
In my opinion, if you can get one of these old guys on your team, your team is going to be better off. That said, the crotchetiness is almost always on the higher end.
Of course, it's not a rule. I also once worked with an older guy who was one of the nicest guys I've worked with... but I wouldn't let him come within 10 feet of my repo.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read all of this as "Major union seeks to extract rent from an additional sector". All the video game industry has to do is to give its workers better treatment than they would get under union stewardship. Problem solved. But I expect video games will follow the path of many other industries, and keep beating their mules until the mules revolt. It's a lesson that has played out publicly hundreds of times over the l…
Sadly they might actually be. It's game theoretically an efficient strategy because they can extract so much before the workers unionize that it'll still be cheaper than compensating them fairly all along.
Only if institutional myopia keeps them focused solely on the next quarter or two.
The companies will learn that treating their employees fairly from the outset is cheaper than having a union force it upon them for the next 10 to 50 years.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
This seems like an argument against unions. I certainly don’t want to live in a world where somebody is guaranteed a wage or a job due to age or seniority. This just seems really entitled. It’s up to you to create value, regardless of age.
That's a straw man argument oft used by anti-labor unions. Think of it this way, you want to create value. But you have NO say in the definition of value, the calculation of that value, and little influence as to what percentage of that value you get to claim as your own. Your livelihood is directly controlled by something you have very little influence over. You have to TRUST the company is going to act in your best…
It isn't a strawman - it is in fact one outcome from the requirements for a union to work: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2016/07/16/public-transit... Workers who feel like they are not better than each other are much more willing to organize, and they are also more likely to support seniority pay systems.
Note that this isn't a hard requirement. Some unions do not have it, but it is a strike against the whole concept. Maybe the union and work anyway, some do. It does however make it much harder for the union to get started and remain started.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#129There are plenty of examples where unions can be a constructive force in securing good working conditions while promoting good business practices. Given the poor reputation of video game development work this could be a really positive development. That being said, the last time I had a unionized job I was pretty disappointed with the results. They consistently failed to secure cost of living adjustments, and the one…
Sounds like you just had a bad union or said union was handicapped. A lot of unions now are not even "allowed" to strike, which is THE tool to secure better working conditions.
Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers
#130[deleted]