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Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

latimes.com

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Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#141

Post by danbolt »

I work as a programmer in the AAA games industry, and I think there are a lot of underexplored options for what collective bargaining could look like. Something such as a trade guild could benefit developers a lot without necessarily requiring things that would irk a more neoliberal-inclined HN reader.

One thing that comes to mind is guarantees about crediting. A worker in the industry is more or less at the whim of the developer/publisher if they're included in the credits. There's a good chance you've played a game or two where the person implementation a core feature wasn't credited because they were not there for the entirety of development (eg: changed jobs, health leave, laid off, etc.).

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#142

Post by friendlybus »

eropple wrote: post #42
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for filling me in. My question wasn’t rhetorical, and if Carmack is right that some games literally couldn’t be made without crunch time, that does seem like a good argument that it’s not a failure even if some people find it intolerable.

He's not. They could be made. They'd just cost more. The race-to-the-bottom pricing effect is not one caused by line developers and it's not caused by customers buying the games. It's caused by management and executives eating the seed corn. It's going to have to stop.

Timing matters more in entertainment than other industries. There is an infinite amount of content you could pack into a game and it has to be delivered on time to be relevant to your customers and out do the competition.

There are countless games and films at every level of investment that come out too late to be relevant, Jodi Foster suffered from that fate not too long ago.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#143

Post by Aperocky »

adamsea wrote: post #26
Aperocky wrote: post #3

Can’t say for video game industry. But software engineers are both in hot demand and well compensated, as such, I personally and the people I know are mostly content and not likely to join an union.

True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand, which will at some point happen (hopefully not soon though), then businesses will adjust. The best time to unionize is WHILE software engineers have power and leverage. And for examples of kinds of unions people don't usually think about, I believe there is an NBA players union. The screenwriters guild of america functions as a…

> True however as soon as market conditions change and software engineers aren't in demand

I find this unlikely, while boom and bust cycles are normal. If software engineers aren't in demand, other people will have it worse. Demand for software engineer will then pick up faster.

I don't see any major employment segment that has higher future prospect or long term security than software engineering.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#144

Post by meheleventyone »

throwaway17_17 wrote: post #119
meheleventyone wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept is called solidarity. Workers with more leverage should have the backs of those with less rather than seeing them as an anchor.

I can understand the general philosophic argument for ‘worker’ solidarity, but in practice that is not how unions work. Union represent professions and then those unions often pool resource under a larger labor umbrella. It is why the the Screen Actors Guild is separate from Cinamatographer Guild, Screenwriters Guild, production laborers union, etc in the motion picture industry. Further it’s why plumbers, carpenters…

How broad the accepted membership is entirely depends on the union. There is no objective reason to always segment by profession. In my opinion having worked in the games industry for over fifteen years software engineers are treated very similarly to other disciplines although paid better and it would make a lot more sense to work together with other disciplines than trying to each form a union separately.

As you say unions often have reciprocal agreements or are even part of larger umbrella organizations for example the TUC in the UK.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#145

Post by usefulcat »

aabeshou wrote: post #89
usefulcat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they do feel exploited, then the union will be a good thing. For them, perhaps. But not so much for future would-be game developers, who will likely have a harder time finding a game dev job. > What barriers to entry do you foresee coming out of a union? Even if union membership does not become a requirement for a job, merely reducing the number of hours worked will increase the cost of making games, even if pay…

Do unions decrease employment? I wasn't aware of that. As I said in a different comment ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21982787 ), I don't think it's 100% sure that games would become more expensive. But if they do, I think it's a tradeoff we have to make in a humane society.

I didn't say that unions decrease employment. I did describe the mechanisms by which employment might be reduced due to increasing costs (regardless of the cause of the cost increases).

In the referenced comment, you speak of "profit from abuse/exploitation", which presupposes that abuse or exploitation is occurring. Most game developers (programmers at least) have skills that are valuable in other kinds of SW development. If they wanted to, they could usually find work that didn't require so much overtime and in many cases would pay better as well. So if they choose to continue working on games, it's just that: a choice, not something that is being forced upon them. Given that, the implication that they are somehow being 'abused' sounds at best paternalistic.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#146

Post by username90 »

aabeshou wrote: post #134
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of development studios are relatively small and, if you follow industry news, bankruptcy is a routine occurrence; even some well known small and indie names are only one or two flops away from bankruptcy. Unions might be able to make headway against EA, Valve, or Activision but for the smaller studios, well, there is no surplus. You can't get blood from a stone no matter how hard you squeeze.

Yes, but why would a union negotiate a deal that bankrupts their small studio? That's against their own self-interest.

Why would a big union care about a small company?

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#147

Post by ianmobbs »

friendlybus wrote: post #136
jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

Independence. People work hard in video games because it's one of the last indie friendly industries. Unions can crush that in many different ways.

Do you have any sources to back that up? The film industry is one of the most heavily unionized industries in America (if not the most!) and indie films are as popular as ever. The only way I can think of a union hindering independent content is that more people actually enjoy the company they work at and attempt to "strike it out on their own" less often.

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#148

Post by [deleted] »

jahaja wrote: post #131

How Americans can be so anti-union by default is really beyond me when looking at the facts at the ground: * A culture of overwork (especially in the game industry). * No vacation. * No parental leave. * No sick leave. * At-will-employment (which inherently causes massive under-reporting of things like sexual harassment in the workplace due to the fear of losing ones livelihood, and please spare me the "actually it's…

[deleted]

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#149

Post by pdkl95 »

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #11
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #2

As much as I don't like the idea of unionizing tech workers in general, game development does seem like it's suffering from the kind of industry-wide coordination failure unions are built to address. Every source I've ever seen is unhappy with months-long crunch time - are there any serious arguments that it's a good development model?

Many well known game developers disagree with this notion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIvHkaV6Ri8 that this is a huge problem. All the sources you see seem unhappy because those stories get the most attention, but it doesn't mean that those things are occurring often or everywhere.

I counter with an interview with many actual game developers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY

"Unionization, Steady Careers, and Generations of Games Culture" by Super Bunnyhop

    03:15 Game Workers Unite: Who, what, why?
    14:11 Anonymous on the disposability of QA staffers
    18:11 Testimonies on crunch
    24:01 History of unionization in Hollywood
    33:39 The potential downsides of unionization
    37:39 Ageism vs. future generations

Re: Major union launches campaign to organize video game and tech workers

#150

Post by metalliqaz »

conanbatt wrote: post #111
hpoe wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> creating more opportunities for young new grads to break in Just going to point out, everywhere, I have ever heard of a union it generally made it harder for new people to come in, not easier, by increasing the commitment an employer is expected to make to an employee, and by making it harder to remove employees that need to be removed but can't because of their seniority with the union.

It is the only way a union can raise wages for its members. But that won't work in the video game industry, there's no barriers to the industry.

"no barriers to the industry"

lol

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