Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#361

Post by mmsimanga » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 8:01 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #352

mmsimanga wrote: post #130

I can't read the article seems have suffered HN effect. Speaking as a black man in Africa which is somewhat different to the US I do agree with the title. Africa is different because the first educated generation is my parents generation who are 70+. Off course they are exceptions. My parents who were teachers coming from pure village setup didn't have any mentors. No one explained mortgage to them, they learnt that…

FWIW, I strongly believe debt is never ok. It can be ok in the same way a hospital surgery is ok (you have no choice). Mortgages are not sustainable either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for centuries,it does not make it a sound practice. It is possible to buy a house with money you saved. This also makes a lot of sense when the house will be passed on to the next generation (like it is d…

I get what you are saying. I agree with most of it. There is a time and place for debt. When you need to expand an existing growing business. A business one has started with their own money, validated it to work and would like an extra piece of equipment to scale up. Debt for the sake of debt is indeed a problem. As for government debt I think that is off topic for this particular thread. That's a whole other story.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#362

Post by mmsimanga » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 8:10 AM UTC

scabarott wrote: post #229

mmsimanga wrote: post #130

I can't read the article seems have suffered HN effect. Speaking as a black man in Africa which is somewhat different to the US I do agree with the title. Africa is different because the first educated generation is my parents generation who are 70+. Off course they are exceptions. My parents who were teachers coming from pure village setup didn't have any mentors. No one explained mortgage to them, they learnt that…

Your grandparents may not have been able to teach your parents about mortgages, taxes etc. but they were able to teach them about discipline, conscientiousness, hardwork, thrift etc. These count for something. This situation is not unique to Africa, there are (white) Americans (especially from poorer places like Appalachia or even just outside of the big coastal cities) who don't grow up familiar with credit cards, v…

Absolutely agree that grandparents were able to successfully impart useful life lessons. This is why I allude to the fact that our parents generation educated whole villages because they were hardworking (implied), generous and selfless.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#363

Post by mmsimanga » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 8:12 AM UTC

krnsll wrote: post #257

mmsimanga wrote: post #130

I can't read the article seems have suffered HN effect. Speaking as a black man in Africa which is somewhat different to the US I do agree with the title. Africa is different because the first educated generation is my parents generation who are 70+. Off course they are exceptions. My parents who were teachers coming from pure village setup didn't have any mentors. No one explained mortgage to them, they learnt that…

Thanks for sharing this. I'm inclined to agree with your observations/reflections. Moreover, I suspect this might be common to the post-colonial experience [fn0] , if we account for: (a) what life was like under colonial rule; (b) how stratified such societies were before/after independence; (c) the forms of government (statist or plutocratic/military regimes) that replaced the colonial structures. These points and y…

Yes from former colony and still reside in another former colony on the African continent. I am staying away from commenting on government influence just commenting as a person and my observations. Government is a whole other conversation.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#364

Post by alphabettsy » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 8:12 AM UTC

lostapathy wrote: post #265

scarface74 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And many Black fathers are “absent” because they are incarcerated because of the “War on Drugs”. Study after study shows that minorities are given longer sentences and even stopped more than non minorities. When drugs were affecting the “inner city” it was all about “being tough on crime”. When it started affecting “middle America” it became about “treating drug abuse as a disease” and “increasing social services.”

I'm not disputing this, at all, but have a weird observation about it that doesn't make sense. I've been to Ft Worth a few times the last few years, and there have been protests about how police "protect and serve white folks only" each time near the area I stayed. But what I can't get my head around is that nearly every cop I saw (near the protest or otherwise) was themselves a minority. So do we have a system where…

There is a legacy from centuries of white supremacy as a legal and cultural mainstay that isn’t fully understood, but certainly has a lasting impact.

One of those is internalized racism and the societal norms that often cause even black people to apply common harmful stereotypes to other black people.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/black-cops-are-just-as-like...

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/02/04/513218656...

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#365

Post by mmsimanga » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 8:26 AM UTC

fersho311 wrote: post #106

About me: I'm asian, 32 years old. Throughout my childhood, I always thought Black people seemed so cool and funny. They exude confidence and it intimidated my to make friends with them. Now I teach people coding before and after my work as a full time software engineer. A few of my students are black. I had a hard time working with them. Later, as I became friends with them, I realized they are very self conscious a…

> Throughout my childhood, I always thought Black people seemed so cool and funny. They exude confidence and it intimidated my to make friends with them.

> Now I teach people coding before and after my work as a full time software engineer. A few of my students are black. I had a hard time working with them.

Speaking as black person this is an astute observation which I have observed. In Africa sometimes this is due to English not being someone's first language. In a meeting with people from different races I have noticed my black colleagues are way less vocal than when we are talking in Zulu on our own. They have a different demeanor and come out as more forceful and confident in Zulu. In English meeting they are less forceful.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#366

Post by lowdose » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 9:53 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #349

crimsonalucard wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. First of all if this were true you'd see tons of asian men dating white women to escape the cultural pressure. You don't see this at all, the phenomenon is largely among women. Second of all, the pressures you describe are a bit exaggerated. The whole mother-in-law, make money and make baby deal is not very common at all. It exists and is more common among asians than westerners but it is still very…

> First of all if this were true you'd see tons of asian men dating white women to escape the cultural pressure. Before jumping to conclusions, there’s another question to ask: do Asian men not want white women, do white women not want Asian men, or is there another reason entirely?

It's an urban myth problem i.e "All Asian men have small dicks". For 50% this will be the truth and hence escalates to a self esteem issue. Watching porn reinforces this inferiority complex. White women don't want to date a small dick guy and avoid guys that are known to have a micropenis. African-Americans and white guys don't have this problem.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#367

Post by DanBC » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #293

DanBC wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points would be more believable if you supported them with reliable sources. For example, this says that there is an ethnicity wage gap: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... Figure Four of that link (which allows you to clicky to remove different groups) clearly shows that "White British" have a higher median hourly rate than "Black, African, Caribbean, or Black British". The picture f…

There isn't an ethnicity wage gap. If you look at data from the Low Wage Commission rather than ONS data (or indeed, any academic work on this) it is very clear (i.e. data that actually uses proper independent variables and looks at within-occupation differentials...the issue with the data reported by the BBC is that the model is underspecified and the unexplained variance is all attributed to racism...this defies lo…

> If you look at data from the Low Wage Commission rather than ONS data

If you're rejecting the Office for National Statistics there's not much I can do. These are robust and reliable stats with detailed information about method and limitation.

Do you mean the Low Pay Commission?

Can you link to their report, because I can't find it.

The only report I could find from them is this, which disagrees with your point.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

> Once in work, evidence shows that people from ethnic minorities progress less far and earn less money than their white counterparts. Baroness McGregor-Smith led an independent review of the issues faced by businesses in developing ethnic minority talent from recruitment through to executive level. Race in the Workplacereported a number of areas of concern at the time:

Here's the Equality and Human Rights Commission Report, but that supports my point that black people are paid less than white people in the UK. (Page 29 median wage) https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/rese...

Or there's this research: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/095001701244509...

> Research repeatedly demonstrates significant ethnic labour market disparities in Britain. While some groups do better than the white British majority, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and black Africans suffer higher rates of unemployment, lower occupational status and lower earnings (Berthoud, 2000; Heath and Cheung, 2006; Heath and McMahon, 1997; Platt, 2005). Such ethnic penalties remain even after controlling statistically for indi-vidual differences, for instance in respect of education.

> What racism?

> there are a huge number of non-white students

You appear to be splitting people into "white" and "non-white", and then looking at the non-white group as a whole. That's not a good idea because it causes you to come to incorrect conclusions.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#368

Post by leereeves » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 10:35 AM UTC

_8j50 wrote: post #352

mmsimanga wrote: post #130

I can't read the article seems have suffered HN effect. Speaking as a black man in Africa which is somewhat different to the US I do agree with the title. Africa is different because the first educated generation is my parents generation who are 70+. Off course they are exceptions. My parents who were teachers coming from pure village setup didn't have any mentors. No one explained mortgage to them, they learnt that…

FWIW, I strongly believe debt is never ok. It can be ok in the same way a hospital surgery is ok (you have no choice). Mortgages are not sustainable either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for centuries,it does not make it a sound practice. It is possible to buy a house with money you saved. This also makes a lot of sense when the house will be passed on to the next generation (like it is d…

> Mortgages are not sustainable either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for centuries,it does not make it a sound practice.

> It is possible to buy a house with money you saved.

...with decades of savings. Until you have those savings, how is paying rent to a landlord preferable to paying mortgage interest to a bank?

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#369

Post by selassieI » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 10:57 AM UTC

Ehhh this article is half bullshit half true. But in its entirety you can see the problems black people face in America, these problems aren’t fixed in some mumbo jumbo feel good mentor program. For any Africans reading this will be very informative to you. Basically after being stolen and forced to work for free or die for 400+ years, black people faced STATE sponsored oppression and terrorism. Centuries of terrorism by violent whites mob beating, bombing , shooting etc black women, men and children alike.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/26/lynchings-me...

At the same time complete segregation in society , as you can imagine there is practically no upper movement for majority of blacks during this time . They went to worst schools, worst universities, every single thing was better for a white person than it was for a black person you virtually couldn’t do anything at all. Not to mention that segregation ended ONLY 56 years ago ! Also, don’t forget this is all STATE SPONSORED.

Now fast forward a little bit and you have state sponsored red lining . For those who aren’t aware red lining is basically black people denied financial and medical services. Basically a bank would draw a line on a map and deny anyone living above that line a loan (obviously those above that line were blacks) . They would loan to a lower income white rather than a middle income or high income black . There was also predatory reverse redlining where banks would go into black areas and lend at higher interests rates etc . Common sense could tell you what the impact of these government programs of oppression have been.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

Fast forward a little more and you have the US industrial prison complex , and the Richard Nixon’s “war on drugs” which devastated the black community . Read this to learn more and for pretty graphs.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/the-shocking-and-sickening-st...

Now you bottle this all up with terribly under funded schools, racism , unfair portrayal in media and films I can go on and on . How the fuck is a mentor going to help? This article is stupid feel good shit, if the US wanted to help it’s citizens they forcefully brought from Africa centuries ago they would have done so by now, they don’t have the intentions and instead have repeatedly shown they will support programs of oppression. You want to give black people a fair chance build some schools, give them funding , hire competent teachers , remove the drug dealers and gang leaders you allow to run rampant the same way you remove leaders of countries or hunt down taliban leaders in remote deserts.

This is the reality of the situation all of you Asians, whites , Indians etc comparing your situation is absolutely positively completely unrelatable.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#370

Post by _8j50 » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #368

_8j50 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I strongly believe debt is never ok. It can be ok in the same way a hospital surgery is ok (you have no choice). Mortgages are not sustainable either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for centuries,it does not make it a sound practice. It is possible to buy a house with money you saved. This also makes a lot of sense when the house will be passed on to the next generation (like it is d…

> Mortgages are not sustainable either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for centuries,it does not make it a sound practice. > It is possible to buy a house with money you saved. ...with decades of savings. Until you have those savings, how is paying rent to a landlord preferable to paying mortgage interest to a bank?

It wouldn't be that expensive if the practice of mortgage wasn't so rampant. It's worth what people are willing to pay for it. And like i said, if people lived with their family longer,even after marriage and houses were passed along generations more, there would even less demand driving down the cost. Not too many decades ago, all you had to do is save up a few years (US) to buy a house, am I wrong? It costs an arm and a leg now because the default way is debt and people will take on a million dollars of debt with $30k/yr income if someone gives them the loan. So the driver of housing prices is not people's income but bank's willingness to loan -- that's why it costs decades ,one spectacular example of why debt is not "ok".