Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#291

Post by pm90 » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #243

pm90 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not ‘privilege’. I was the potential contained in the passed on genes of my family and they wanted to make sure I didn’t squander it. So they created the best environment for me. I had the added bonus of a large joint family which meant that the family was a miniature village of aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins, nieces and nephews as one family unit. Single parenthood is tough. I wish society would stop t…

I think you may have missed parent's point. What he's saying is that having a "stable and supportive" family should really not be a privilege in the first place, regardless of material resources. Plenty of folks throughout history, even folks of very limited means and quite low station for their time, have had stable and supportive familied behind them. Families are an extremely important bedrock and building block o…

> Calling all this mere "privilege" is a defeatist and devaluing attitude, that betrays a facile lack of empathy for the plight of those involved.

I would advise you to not resort to name calling if you want to have a honest discourse.

Now to the substance of your argument: yes families have been the bedrock in the past, but the assumption that everyone may have stable, reliable families to depend on does not hold in the modern world. As fertility rates plummet, families are smaller in size. Many children born in the past couple of generations in the US lived in divorced households or were raised by single parents, and this is only going to increase in the future. To ignore that reality and insist on people forming families is going to be as effective as insisting on abstinence as a form of birth control.

So yes, having a stable family is most certainly a privilege today, regardless of whether it’s defeatist or not. It’s a fact. Recognizing that reality will allow us to dedicate resources to help the present and coming generations of kids, instead of abandoning or incarcerating them.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#292

Post by dcl » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

haihaibye wrote: post #212

jpster wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the previous commenter is on to something re icebreakers. Also, please check out Carol Dweck’s work on Growth Mindset. Her book shares examples of how researchers and teachers successfully primed underprivileged students to stop thinking of intelligence as a fixed trait. Some interesting mindset “hacks” that eventually helped them outperform students w/better resources.

With a pre-registered, much larger sample size, Growth mindset replicated but the effect size was tiny: https://psyarxiv.com/md2qa On a 4-point grade metric (“A” = 4.0, “B” = 3.0, etc.), the average treatment effect was 0.03 grade points

How do I read this? It looks like it has been pulled down for further review/work.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#293

Post by hogFeast » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #234

hogFeast wrote: post #152

Funnily enough, the UK had this problem about fifteen years ago. Everyone was wringing their hands madly and talking about things like mentorship, and how the education system was inherently racist (and, unfortunately, always making implications about how white people were all racist and this was a deliberate outcome) or certain groups apparently having no fathers. Fifteen years later, and black kids are more than tw…

Your points would be more believable if you supported them with reliable sources. For example, this says that there is an ethnicity wage gap: https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... Figure Four of that link (which allows you to clicky to remove different groups) clearly shows that "White British" have a higher median hourly rate than "Black, African, Caribbean, or Black British". The picture f…

There isn't an ethnicity wage gap. If you look at data from the Low Wage Commission rather than ONS data (or indeed, any academic work on this) it is very clear (i.e. data that actually uses proper independent variables and looks at within-occupation differentials...the issue with the data reported by the BBC is that the model is underspecified and the unexplained variance is all attributed to racism...this defies logic).

Btw, it is very clear that some ethnic minorities are underpaid and excluded from certain occupations (i.e. they are underpaid within occupation, aren't promoted, and are excluded from occupations systemically)...but it is Pakastani/Bangladeshi, not blacks.

What racism? There is evidence that the UK is one of the most racially tolerant societies in Europe and comparable with any other developed country (admittedly, Europe is not a good comparison because of the prevalence of intolerance there) - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2019.00012...

I will say that I have observed a definite change of attitude by black students however. I went to the university local to me, there are a huge number of non-white students (majority in some faculties) and I have never observed any problem ever (discussing race or nationality would make no sense to any of the students there). The Afro-Carribean society (one, btw, that has always had white members) held an event where white people were banned from attending (again, not just non-black...specifically white) on the subject of resisting white culture. This is a Russell Group uni that you need 3As for in almost every course. This is the result of hammering the idea of racism and inferiority into one group and repeatedly telling them that other people think they are less than. The idea that this is reducing intolerance is quite contrary to all the evidence.

Btw, it is kind of funny that the UK has a solution for this problem...it works...and no-one is interested. The only thing you seem to care about is more identity wars, more conflict, more hate.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#294

Post by aaomidi » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:45 AM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #250

whb07 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oooooh I’m walking out of this one. Never mind we have a Supreme Court justice and a President who are/were black.

I mean, if you think electing one black man president solves racism for all black people I don't know it's going to be a productive discussion anyway.

You're right. The other person is extremely rude and dismissive.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#295

Post by sethammons » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:47 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #256

esotericn wrote: post #121

Though I imagine the prevalence is much higher in black youth, this is a general issue that goes beyond race. A stable upbringing with a family that you can use as role models. If you don't have that, you're in for an uphill struggle. If everyone around you is unemployed, or works in part time unskilled labour - if you're moving from home to home all of the time - if you have no bedroom - if your family argues, or yo…

> if your family argues You do know that arguing is normal and that suppressing it or hiding it from children fucks them up even more right? Part of being a functioning member of society requires being able to argue.

Different people have different definitions of arguing, especially when it comes to family. There is healthy debate and there is dishes flying through the air, name calling, screaming, and slammed doors. Leaning towards the former can be healthy. The latter? I don't think so.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#296

Post by dsfyu404ed » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 1:51 AM UTC

iknowalot wrote: post #280

zchrykng wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything I've read also indicates that it is mostly or entirely driven by economic status. White people who grow up poor and/or with single mothers are also highly likely to end up in prison compared to the normal population. This isn't about ethnicity, it is about economics and culture. It only disproportionately affects black people because of historical trends and welfare programs decades back that encouraged si…

Average white US citizen has $1,000,000 in wealth, the average black person $500. Just had to own the plot of free land available to settlers (stolen from natives) for 100+ years to reach that mark $1m. No rocket science or brain surgery involved. This was planned maliciously, not an unintended consequence. If you learn anything about US history and the people who ran this country know that they wanted the outcomes w…

>Average white US citizen has $1,000,000 in wealth, the average black person $500.

Knowing what we know about wealth distribution that just means there's less "crazy rich" black people.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#297

Post by fallous » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

kumarski wrote: post #49

3 things that are noticeable about black people in America. * They weren't really allowed viable property access until the last 50 years or so. 100's of years of catch up to make up for. * Accumulating disadvantage of fatherless and motherless households. * The blast radius of municipal violations disproportionately afflicts black people in the USA. Not saying I like these things, but they're core problems.

I'm unsure what you mean by "viable property access," but blacks owned some 14% of farms in the US and around 15M acres of land (not all agricultural) around the turn of the 20th century. Sadly that has shrunk to around 8M acres today.

There is no doubt that the accumulating disadvantages of single parent households (or worse) have had a terrible and disproportionate impact on blacks in the US. Unfortunately that is a much more recent phenomenon give that prior to 1960 the percentage of black children born to unwed mothers was sub-20% but now exceeds 70%. Current rates for white children are around 30% and only Asian children still enjoy a sub-20% unwed mother birthrate.

I'm not clear what "municipal violations" are in this context but certainly would appreciate further clarification especially as they pertain to the black community.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#298

Post by zozbot234 » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 2:04 AM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #291

zozbot234 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have missed parent's point. What he's saying is that having a "stable and supportive" family should really not be a privilege in the first place, regardless of material resources. Plenty of folks throughout history, even folks of very limited means and quite low station for their time, have had stable and supportive familied behind them. Families are an extremely important bedrock and building block o…

> Calling all this mere "privilege" is a defeatist and devaluing attitude, that betrays a facile lack of empathy for the plight of those involved. I would advise you to not resort to name calling if you want to have a honest discourse. Now to the substance of your argument: yes families have been the bedrock in the past, but the assumption that everyone may have stable, reliable families to depend on does not hold in…

> but the assumption that everyone may have stable, reliable families to depend on does not hold in the modern world

How convenient then that this assumption just so happens to hold quite well even in the longer run for those you would think of as "privileged", while others will just have to do without. Sorry, I don't buy it. Uptake of sensible, middle-class values should not be construed as some privilege that will always be inherently out of reach for others. I am indeed sorry if you felt that I was name-calling in my previous comment; but it seems clear to me that attitudes like yours are doing these folks a pretty big disservice.

Should we commit resources to help "present and coming" generations? Of course - various sorts of criminal justice reform can be a big help here, for example. But that's a wholly separate argument than whether forming families is only for the 'privileged'.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#299

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

camdenlock wrote: post #276

wayoutthere wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcastic racism is still racism. It perpetuates the hateful stereotypes without claiming them, which almost seems worse. I stopped being sarcastic in general when a friend pointed out that it's usually based in some form of hatred -- whether of yourself or someone else.

Oh dear...

[deleted]

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#300

Post by giardini » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #213

giardini wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its called "sarcasm".

Sarcastic racism is still racism. It perpetuates the hateful stereotypes without claiming them, which almost seems worse. I stopped being sarcastic in general when a friend pointed out that it's usually based in some form of hatred -- whether of yourself or someone else.

And so we now go down the rabbit hole of political correctness, ending free speech and hope of enlightenment from this discussion.