Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#331

Post by Simon_says » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 3:53 AM UTC

jenkins6g wrote: post #30

maxaf wrote: post #3

Or, you know, fathers. Half of success in fatherhood comes from simply showing up. Absentee fathers contribute to the generational erosion of the family fabric that is almost impossible to undo.

Agreed, but as a black man who grew up fatherless be mindful why black fathers are absent. Many times it's not by choice. There were and still are intentional systems in place to make it difficult for fathers to get jobs, stay within the prison system, and have access to quality education. I urge people commenting to ask their black friends for their insights. I came from an inner city and graduated from CMU. The two…

> stay within the prison system

Is it too much to ask black men to not commit crimes?

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#332

Post by bsanr2 » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 3:54 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #267

wayoutthere wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Black community does not have a solid culture and tradition comparing to other immigration minority groups lol, I stopped reading here. Go read some du Bois and listen to some Jazz. Black culture is American culture. They've been here longer than most whites (the great European migration happened right around the time the slave trade ended and that's not coincidental).

> They've been here longer than most whites (the great European migration happened right around the time the slave trade ended and that's not coincidental). This sort of proves the point though. If the entire culture was born in America, it’s very young compared to the immigrant cultures brought over from Italy, China, etc.

It wasn't. Much of black culture can be traced to West African origins, from the grammatical structure of AAVE[0], to the vernacular art which became part of Southern visual and functional design patterns[1], to attributes of contemporary black music[2].

[0]https://www.dictionary.com/e/united-states-diversity-african...

[1]https://www.incollect.com/articles/hand-to-hand-southern-cra...

[2]https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers...

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#333

Post by bsanr2 » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 3:59 AM UTC

whb07 wrote: post #247

wayoutthere wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lastly, would you openly say that racism is higher today than say 50 years ago? Of course not, and yet by looking at the metrics of unemployment or family stability, things are worse. I would openly say that on the things that really matter, racism today is no better than 50 years ago. It's just had 50 years in between for the negative effects to continue compounding.

Oooooh I’m walking out of this one. Never mind we have a Supreme Court justice and a President who are/were black.

School segregation is as bad as before Brown vs BoE. Among other things.

Have fun: https://www.propublica.org/series/segregation-now

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#334

Post by crimsonalucard » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 4:06 AM UTC

tgyfredr wrote: post #303

crimsonalucard wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why a lot of asians have this racial inferiority complex. I (being asian myself) grew up in an affluent asian dominated neighborhood of Cupertino. I had black, white and asian friends growing up and I never thought too much of racial issues. Maybe because in my schools asian americans were largely the majority. Again, I had the same experience going to school at UCLA which was largely populated mostly by asi…

I found this to be a very American phenomenon, as I see it less from Asians that grew up in most European or South American countries. I also definitely see a difference in self esteem between Asian Americans that grew up in California compared to the rest of the US. Strangely, or maybe it makes sense, the Asian Americans that I saw with the highest self esteem were Mormons! This is one of the reasons my wife and I m…

Yeah, I noticed it too. It does pervade the entire US but I've also noticed it's mostly concentrated in California.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#335

Post by jelliclesfarm » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 4:17 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #298

pm90 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling all this mere "privilege" is a defeatist and devaluing attitude, that betrays a facile lack of empathy for the plight of those involved. I would advise you to not resort to name calling if you want to have a honest discourse. Now to the substance of your argument: yes families have been the bedrock in the past, but the assumption that everyone may have stable, reliable families to depend on does not hold in…

> but the assumption that everyone may have stable, reliable families to depend on does not hold in the modern world How convenient then that this assumption just so happens to hold quite well even in the longer run for those you would think of as "privileged", while others will just have to do without. Sorry, I don't buy it. Uptake of sensible, middle-class values should not be construed as some privilege that will…

FWIW, I didn’t think there was any name calling.

[..]

priv·i·lege /ˈpriv(ə)lij/

noun

a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

[..]

Creating and raising stable families is not a zero sum game. I don’t think it should be categorized as ‘privilege’. It makes light of the sacrifices and hard work of families and parents who deliberately steer the fate of their offsprings.

Every American by default is more privileged because of accident of birth vs immigrants who move to the United States. And yet, immigrants have consistently braved the odds to become successful and grant it to their offsprings, kin and extended families. It is dedication and hard work. Not luck or privilege.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#336

Post by erichocean » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #139

Africa has "absentee fathers" in the Black community at the same rate as the US today, and likely for the same reason: that's just how children are raised by that culture. High rates of Black "fathers at home" during the Jim Crow era in the US was due to unethical cultural domination of Blacks by whites.

Wow people, I'm OBVIOUSLY referring to sub-Saharan Africa. When we say in the US that someone is an "African-American", that's what we're talking about—not Elon Musk and Charlize Theron ffs. And for the record, NONE OF YOU were confused.

Everything I said about sub-Saharan Africans living in the US and in Africa is still true: they both have the same absentee Father rate (90%+), and it's cultural. That's what sub-Saharan Africans are genetically adapted to, and it's the best fit for them. Deal with it. And while you're at it, stop trying to make Blacks "act white"—in the US or elsewhere. That's white supremacist, Trump-level rhetoric and needs to stop.

Each people group can and should be allowed to make the best decisions FOR THEM. If that means they want men out of the home, and women running things and raising children—then that's fine. If they want to manage large clan-type arrangements like the Chinese, or in the Middle East—that's fine too. Western European standards are just that: Western European. They're not some gold standard applicable for all peoples, in all places. This is literally diversity and multi-culturalism 101, and it's sad that HN of all places has so many ignorant people. If I wanted Fox News "muh blacks are absentee fathers" point-and-shriek commentary, I'd turn on the TV and watch Trump.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#337

Post by burfog » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 4:46 AM UTC

umvi wrote: post #226

bsanr2 wrote: post #169

As much as HN's readers need to see articles like this, I don't know if the sophistication levels on this topic are high enough to handle the discussion that's ensued. "Or, you know, fathers," is a... disappointing take, to say the least.

An equally disappointing take for me is the whole "the system is to blame" angle where nobody is ever responsible for their own actions. i.e. "free will doesn't exist; you would have made the exact same decision had you been subject to the same pressures" Yes, "the system" plays a role, but it's dangerous to make it the sole scapegoat. I like the idea of mentorship because it aims to change individuals, not just blam…

Note how "the system" includes our choice of how we assign blame!

So when "the system is to blame", part of that is the fact that we so often assign blame to "the system" instead of holding individuals responsible. The part of "the system" worth blaming is the part that puts blame on "the system".

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#338

Post by n_t » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 4:47 AM UTC

Every child deserves a good mentor, but I believe that black kids (not just boys but girls too) urgently need an idol to emulate. Most kids I interact with (a very small subset) seem to idolize pop stars, who are talented but mostly are bad role models. Black community must produce likes of MLK, who prove the point through their life and not just by words. Obama, despite divided opinion among Americans, I feel is a good contemporary role model for black kids.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#339

Post by MiroF » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 5:06 AM UTC

banads wrote: post #323

MiroF wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but if you're comparing black performance to the performance of other races - you can't leave wealth accumulation out of the picture. Sure, there are plenty of poor people who are white, but when you are looking at aggregate statistics, the gap is extremely clear. In my city, Boston, the average household wealth of a white family (excluding the value of the home) is $200,000. The average household wealth of a bl…

>In my city, Boston, the average household wealth of a white family (excluding the value of the home) is $200,000. The average household wealth of a black family is $5. (and no, I didn't forget to put a thousand after the 5) Do you have a source for that? Seems like you may be referring to this study[1] which only had a sample size of 78 white households and 71 black households. In that sample, the median net worth d…

You're correct - I misremembered the exact numbers. Median is an average. The Federal Reserve Bank of Boston was my source for this.

Despite your usage of the qualifier "only" to describe the sample sizes, that is more than sufficient to draw statistically significant conclusions about the racial gap in wealth in Boston.

Finally, here's the description of how the samples were selected:

> Various sampling techniques were used to locate and identify an ethnically plural sample consisting of the specifically defined ethnic groups. The techniques included the following: directory-listed landline samples targeted to census tracts where groups were known to reside; cell phone random digit dialing samples drawn from rate centers that covered the targeted ethnic group ZIP codes; samples drawn from targeted ZIP codes on the basis of billing address; and the use of surname-based lists targeting specific national origin groups.

Re: Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018)

#340

Post by jdkee » Sun, Jan 05, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #211

esotericn wrote: post #121

Though I imagine the prevalence is much higher in black youth, this is a general issue that goes beyond race. A stable upbringing with a family that you can use as role models. If you don't have that, you're in for an uphill struggle. If everyone around you is unemployed, or works in part time unskilled labour - if you're moving from home to home all of the time - if you have no bedroom - if your family argues, or yo…

> People talk about 'privilege' in upbringing because it's actually kind of rare to have a functional family. I’m not sure how rare it is overall, but it definitely varies by region. Where I grew up (and where I live now, I moved back a couple of years ago) the traditional/stereotypically American “atomic family” seems to be the norm. Sure, I knew lots of peers as a child whose parents had divorced, but by and large…

This. There are many children being brought up in single parent or grandparent headed households across Ohio due to the opioid epidemic. See

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/26/us/opioids-kinship-ohio.h...

and

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/02/us/opioid-cri...

The kids who were raised under the shadow of the opioid epidemic are now reaching their child-bearing years. Hopefully the cycle of drug dependance can be broken once firmer opioid prescribing regulations take effect.

EDIT: Not trying to generalize your situation but to illuminate the problematic environments some children are born into.