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Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

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Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#211

Post by testplzignore »

alistairSH wrote: post #114
vegardx wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Oslo at least, the crosswalks (usually) have lights if there's an intersection, and since there are no laws against crossing on red you are free to do so, as long as you don't create any dangerous situations. I'd argue that the lights are not to improve traffic flow, but to signal pedestrians that it's safe to cross, something sighted, young or otherwise healthy people often take for granted by just looking both w…

In the US, pedestrian signals do NOT signal when it’s safe to cross. Cars almost always have a green in the same direction, meaning they can turn into you. I almost get run over once a month because of this.

Where I live in the US, my understanding is that pedestrians always have the right of way at intersections (regardless of whether there are any traffic or pedestrian signals) unless:

1. There is a pedestrian signal that says to NOT cross, or

2. The traffic signal going in the direction the pedestrian is walking is red.

So if the light is green and the pedestrian signal does not say to not cross, then the pedestrian has the right of way over any cars turning. However, as with anything traffic related, that doesn't mean that a pedestrian can intentionally create an unsafe situation (e.g., start crossing the street as a car is turning).

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#212

Post by MereInterest »

ken wrote: post #196
MereInterest wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it is definitely a huge cultural problem. In the US, many drivers will ignore the existence of pedestrians altogether. For example, pulling up to an intersection and only looking to the left before making a right turn, because that is the only direction that car traffic can be coming from. It isn't every car by any means, but enough cars that pedestrians need to assume that drivers are incompetent until given evi…

It goes both ways. At least once a day (in the USA) I see a pedestrian walk or run into an intersection against their own red. A few are lost in their phones, but the vast majority simply take a glance to make sure you're going to slow down, and then charge on through.

It is still an entirely asymmetric situation. If a pedestrian is inattentive, the consequences fall on the pedestrian. If a driver is inattentive, the consequences fall on the pedestrian.

(This is not to imply that severe injury and death are appropriate "punishments" for walking inattentively, merely that the pedestrians have large incentive to modulate their behavior, while drivers do not.)

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#213

Post by Zenst »

Saw this study that pertains to road safty for Oslo published a few years back and some interesting aspects, like seasonal patterns and what works and what does not. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751...

Clearly an achievement that has been worked for and not statistical anomaly low.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#214

Post by glofish »

TomMarius wrote: post #130
lucideer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's multiple issues with your anecdote (one of course it being an anecdote, not a statistic); to focus on the main ones: - you're looking at individual efficiency rather than system: in particular the fact that public transport is made less efficient by people driving. You're describing a chicken-egg problem if you want improvements in public transport - you're focused on time as a metric, not accounting for econ…

If I live next to a subway and tram stations (trams have dedicated tracks not shared with car in most places here) and the car is still a better option, it's an issue with the public transport system and people driving do not make it much worse. The subway is not affected at all and yet the number of trains per hour has stayed constant for years.

What is your point exactly?

That it is possible that there a few individuals for whom driving is more advantageous than public transport? Of course, it is possible.

Is it likely that if everyone drove instead of taking public transport driving would become unbearable for everyone, you included? Of course again.

So what are you arguing for exactly? That everyone should drive? Are you looking for absolution for liking to drive? Are you looking for an arrangment where it is ok if you drive but not others?

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#215

Post by glofish »

keldaris wrote: post #179
TomMarius wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you mean with this effectiveness. I live in Prague, the city with (what they say) one of the best public transport systems in the world, and yet, going to my workplace is 45 minutes by public transport and 15 minutes by car. Even though I live close to a subway and tram station, and the workplace is right in the city center, car still wins - where is the effectiveness you're talking about? This is…

From my experience, your anecdote generalizes very well across most of the EU. You're being downvoted because HN has a particularly loud car hating bubble. Luckily, there are very few places these people have any meaningful chance of imposing their views on the rest of us.

What does it mean to "impose" their views?

Do you mean that car ownership is disincentivized by making people bear more of the cost of their car ownership?

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#216

Post by J_cst »

gokhan wrote: post #13

One interesting observation on Oslo is that, pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them, if there's no moving traffic close by. This is totally different from, for example, Copenhagen, Stockholm and places I visited in Germany. They're like Italians of the north. That's probably why we felt at home on the streets during our stay there, as a family from Turkey. I would love to have that 0 deaths statistics…

cit. "They're like Italians of the north"

I'd like to stress that Italy is quite diverse throughout and not all us Italians resemble the stereotype. Happy new year.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#217

Post by raverbashing »

ourlordcaffeine wrote: post #180
ehnto wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's so dangerous, maybe we should get the cars out of the places where people are walking around a lot. Since the primary purpose of a city is for people to get business and life done, and not to move cars from one side of it to the other. People should be able to cross outside of crosswalks, because the cars should be driving fast somewhere else, or driving at a safe speed in the city. That safe speed is far, fa…

Pedestrianization is a thing in a lot of places outside the US and UK. But whenever it is proposed in the US or UK, the usual suspects turn pink with rage and claim that removing cars from the city centre will kill the high street (spoiler alert: it doesn't)

I am familiar with pedestrianized streets in several cities, they still have traffic on the surrounding street and at the street for freight and at specific times.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#218

Post by jan_g »

TomMarius wrote: post #98
yason wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pedestrians do cross the street when it's red for them You have to think what pedestrian lights are for. They exist solely to improve the flow of car traffic. Pedestrian lights are in gross contrast to the rights and benefits of pedestrians. Without lights, pedestrians would always have first priority on a crosswalk. Cars would have to stop for any pedestrian crossing the street. However, drivers (of inefficient but…

I am not sure what you mean with this effectiveness. I live in Prague, the city with (what they say) one of the best public transport systems in the world, and yet, going to my workplace is 45 minutes by public transport and 15 minutes by car. Even though I live close to a subway and tram station, and the workplace is right in the city center, car still wins - where is the effectiveness you're talking about? This is…

It is (almost) the same for every city, if you compare driving times from suburbs to city centre. The reason is that city train/metro/tram needs to stop on 15+ stations before reaching the inner city.

Still, to me, train is superior - I can just sit and relax. Driving is much more tiring. 15 minutes or so difference is not worth it.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#219

Post by lolinder »

testplzignore wrote: post #211
alistairSH wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, pedestrian signals do NOT signal when it’s safe to cross. Cars almost always have a green in the same direction, meaning they can turn into you. I almost get run over once a month because of this.

Where I live in the US, my understanding is that pedestrians always have the right of way at intersections (regardless of whether there are any traffic or pedestrian signals) unless: 1. There is a pedestrian signal that says to NOT cross, or 2. The traffic signal going in the direction the pedestrian is walking is red. So if the light is green and the pedestrian signal does not say to not cross, then the pedestrian h…

The problem I've seen is that (especially in suburbs where pedestrians are rarer) drivers don't check for pedestrians. Almost every time I'm walking for any length of time I nearly get hit by a car that assumes that a green light means they're free to turn right without any restrictions. This isn't me intentionally creating an unsafe situation (often I'm already in the intersection), it's drivers who see so few pedestrians they're not trained to think of them.

Re: Oslo had 0 pedestrian, 0 cyclist, 0 children and 1 driver trafic deaths in 2019

#220

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Zenst wrote: post #213

Saw this study that pertains to road safty for Oslo published a few years back and some interesting aspects, like seasonal patterns and what works and what does not. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751... Clearly an achievement that has been worked for and not statistical anomaly low.

Safety for mixed classes of traffic (car vs bike, yard worker vs freight train, sailboat vs tugboat, dump truck vs service truck, etc, etc.) has been studied since the industrial revolution brought about a world where it was common for a workplace to have big heavy things rolling around. Nobody wants to get hit and nobody wants to stop a money making operation because someone got hit. It's a shame that whenever cars/bikes/pedestrians are involved in the discussion it turns into your typical politicized yelling match.

Good on Oslo for using a data driven approach. Finding the political capital to do that sort of thing instead of just caving to whoever screams loudest seems rare these days.

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