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Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

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Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#51

Post by amiga_500 »

seem_2211 wrote: post #44
amiga_500 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't go to uni in the USA and the paper is by the St Louis Fed on USA grads. You took your degree in a country with far lower inequality and better inward education investment, and then jumped over to work in a country that doesn't tax people enough to support USA students. I'd imagine that is pretty good value.

I went to university in a country with a Gini coefficient of .35, and now live in a country with a Gini coefficient of .39 (See OECD link below) The funny thing is, my student loan is one of the highest out of my American friend group† (although very normal amongst my NZ peers). Unlike the US, there was a lot less much in the way of financial aid/scholarships available, so sticker price was what people actually paid.…

Interesting. I knew NZ was pretty messed up but I didn't realise it was that bad.

The friend bit is anecdata.

Looks like NZ avg debt is $28k NZD [1]

USA is $29 USD [2]

So USA is 50% more expensive, on avg (NZDUSD 1.5). IMHO both are a disgrace, but that's another thing.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_New_Zealand#S...

2: https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#52

Post by astura »

monoideism wrote: post #21
50 wrote: post #16

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end…

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're t…

Philosophy is a good undergrad choice if you're planning on going to law school.

>Taking out $200,000, which is the going rate for most liberal arts 4-year-degrees

The average student loan balance is $29,800 upon graduation. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/20/how-much-the-average-student...

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#53

Post by monoideism »

50 wrote: post #28
monoideism wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're t…

Thank you for the input. It's interesting, and hey, it might be the case down the road. But my main philosophy behind my seemingly naive post is this: I don't mind what happens. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters. Edit: I saw your edit, and again, thank you for your input. I would just like to note that I'll be graduating with ~12k in debt - I went to a comm…

~12,000 isn't too bad. You also did the smart thing by going to community college first.

So it's sounds like you're OK, or at least not financially ruined. Payments on $12,000 will be manageable.

I'm mostly talking about the folks taking out $50-200,000 in loans for an undergrad degree with some random major (with the upper end of that scale obviously being much worse than the lower end).

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#54

Post by esotericn »

incone123 wrote: post #41
esotericn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you contradicting yourself somewhat here? The alternate universe version of you wouldn't have the same job - as you say in paragraph 1 you'd work somewhere else. People on here earn top percentile salaries which warp the calculus, myself included, but $50K is approximately one year of the UK median income (I imagine the US figure is similar). I'd be worried about making back hundreds of thousands in a low paid…

UK median income in 2018 was GBP 28,400 which is at today's rate about USD 36,600. I don't see why you made the comparison though? The person deciding to start a 4 year degree can't assume they personally have an opportunity cost of 4*annual median earnings.

My claim is roughly that making back ~1 median wage is not a high bar to meet. Over a working career I'd consider it below the error margin; it's 2-3% of lifetime earnings if you only earn median.

Like, flubbing a single negotiation on any job could have a higher impact than that over the rest of your career.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#55

Post by Gibbon1 »

amiga_500 wrote: post #27
seem_2211 wrote: post #12

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons. 1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality. 2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems…

You didn't go to uni in the USA and the paper is by the St Louis Fed on USA grads. You took your degree in a country with far lower inequality and better inward education investment, and then jumped over to work in a country that doesn't tax people enough to support USA students. I'd imagine that is pretty good value.

I did something like that. The country was California in the 1980s.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#56

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

What all these studies always fail to factor is that a college degree will give you an advantage over someone that does not have one in just about any situation. Just the fact that you have one will signal to the potential employer that you can accomplish goals, meet a deadline and the many things you need to deal with to get a degree over those that don't have one.

The real question is, "Does an ivy league degree, and those that are very expensive worth it?" I suspect that in most cases it's not. An art degree from Harvard will most likely not pay for itself. But an engineering one from a respected state school will likely have a good return on investment.

Bottom line a degree is worth it. But you have to make sure you pick a major that pays off in the end.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#57

Post by mch82 »

prepend wrote: post #34
ransom1538 wrote: post #18

A person in our family is a specialized nurse. Two years of school, then some more training. $60hr any hour they "wish" to work. Saturdays/Sundays are $90hr, so is any hour after 8 hours. The demand is so high he just rejects work. If he wants to work in American Samoa or Miami: hired. I hired a person to install a garage door. $900 for an hour of work. My plumber wont show up for a 30 minute $300 job. I will call ag…

You need some better contractors. I have multiple plumbers with same day service for $95 service calls. My garage door was installed for $400 and it took an afternoon. Obviously prices vary. I can make a living with a trade skill, but data shows I’m more likely to make a lot more with a college degree. You have billionaire dropouts and baristas with phds. But on average, degree nets you a lot of lifetime income. Mayb…

Interesting that billionaire dropouts often send their children to college & donate heavily to public education

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#58

Post by amiga_500 »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #55
amiga_500 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't go to uni in the USA and the paper is by the St Louis Fed on USA grads. You took your degree in a country with far lower inequality and better inward education investment, and then jumped over to work in a country that doesn't tax people enough to support USA students. I'd imagine that is pretty good value.

I did something like that. The country was California in the 1980s.

Don't forget the old prop 13 rug pull!

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#59

Post by Retric »

50 wrote: post #16

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end…

Thinking it’s a good idea is why so many people regret doing exactly what you’re doing.

The simple reality is collage class are incredibly shallow introductions to the subject matter and hardly worth the price of admission. That’s somewhat offset by credentials, but your comparison is high school which says more about how bad high school is than how great collage is.

No joke, at one point I tutoring my friends in some classes I had not taken. Your professors may have a deep understanding of the subject, but they need to dumb the material down so people can pick it up over ~15 weeks.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#60

Post by bootlooped »

virmundi wrote: post #32

Hopefully the US can take a page from the Germans and institute vocational schools. We look down on plumbers, electricians, etc. We constantly couch our praise of them with phrases like, "Wait until your knee gives". I have a MSCS from GA Tech. I've got about 18 years official experience. I get paid $95/hr. Plumbers? $120/hr. Electricians are about the same. We need them. Let's teach them. Maybe with apprenticeships.

Are plumbers actually working 40 billable hours a week? And how much are they working that is not billable (driving from site to site)? I would be surprised if they made more in a year than educated STEM professionals. The attention-getting per-hour rate might not be a great metric.
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