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Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

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Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#41

Post by incone123 »

esotericn wrote: post #3
ryanmercer wrote: post #2

I don't have a degree and am constantly told in rejections by potential employers, and my own employer when applying for advancement, that they are looking for degree holders. Many job listings also flat out state a 4-year degree is a minimum. A degree would absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt improve my chances of increasing my income. At my current job only about 7%. But the tens of thousands of do…

Aren't you contradicting yourself somewhat here? The alternate universe version of you wouldn't have the same job - as you say in paragraph 1 you'd work somewhere else. People on here earn top percentile salaries which warp the calculus, myself included, but $50K is approximately one year of the UK median income (I imagine the US figure is similar). I'd be worried about making back hundreds of thousands in a low paid…

UK median income in 2018 was GBP 28,400 which is at today's rate about USD 36,600. I don't see why you made the comparison though? The person deciding to start a 4 year degree can't assume they personally have an opportunity cost of 4*annual median earnings.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#42

Post by fountainofage »

monoideism wrote: post #21
50 wrote: post #16

Look, I'm studying undergraduate philosophy with no intention other than why not. Would I say I could learn the material on my own w/o college? Absolutely but I like the organized structure of college w/ professors, peers, etc. Am I getting into debt? A fair bit. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years from now? Most likely. Because here's the thing: education as a means to an end…

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're t…

I majored in one of the STEM fields that doesn't pay any money (chemistry), and now I do the computer stuff for a living and to make money. Given how I did the whole "do STEM and you'll never be wrong route" and it was wrong... Well, I wish I had spent those 4 years at college reading philosophy works and studying the classics. I'd probably still be in the same place I am now, but at least I wouldn't have spent 1000+ hours in a lab to get here.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#44

Post by seem_2211 »

amiga_500 wrote: post #27
seem_2211 wrote: post #12

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons. 1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality. 2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems…

You didn't go to uni in the USA and the paper is by the St Louis Fed on USA grads. You took your degree in a country with far lower inequality and better inward education investment, and then jumped over to work in a country that doesn't tax people enough to support USA students. I'd imagine that is pretty good value.

I went to university in a country with a Gini coefficient of .35, and now live in a country with a Gini coefficient of .39 (See OECD link below)

The funny thing is, my student loan is one of the highest out of my American friend group† (although very normal amongst my NZ peers). Unlike the US, there was a lot less much in the way of financial aid/scholarships available, so sticker price was what people actually paid.

https://data.oecd.org/inequality/income-inequality.htm

† For people with undergraduate degrees

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#45

Post by monoideism »

amiga_500 wrote: post #40
monoideism wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Skilled manual work. Cannot be outsourced. But it can be dramatically diluted through lenient immigration policies (and that's exactly what happened). Bottom line, you have to be clever stay on your toes to make it in today's economy, and even then you need lots of luck and excellent health. UBI would result in a much more just society.

UBI would just feed directly into rents because that's how prices are set. UBI would require land value tax to ensure the public value is capture for public spending. UBI alone is a land speculator wet dream and Yang is totally wrong to be pushing it without LVT. Yes in the middle of nowhere it can help, but most people are in cities and rents will rise there to current rent + UBI amount.

I agree that a significant LVT would be extremely welcome. Perhaps even more so than UBI.

I'm open to suggestions, but we've passed the point we were in from 1950 to 2000 where any mediocre person could work hard and be guaranteed a middle-class life. And that's wrong, not to mention very threatening to our democracy.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#46

Post by seem_2211 »

orange3xchicken wrote: post #36
magicsmoke wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then, depending on your speciality the economic return from a PhD is iffy since you're losing 5+ years of industry wages and experience.

Few people pursuing PhDs are doing so to maximize earning potential. Disregarding the mental toll of a PhD (one problem being that too many people want to be paid to think than there are available positions), I totally disagree with the parent poster's claim that graduate school is a rip-off. Just being in an an academic environment, being able to take classes, & studying around really smart people and doing research…

The argument you put forward doesn't make sense. It's not a ripoff to make close to minimum wage for a number of years (and possibly take on high levels of student loan debt), all to work in a field where there is an oversupply of labour that depresses wages?

Ok...

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#47

Post by toast0 »

seem_2211 wrote: post #12

I have a degree from a no-name university in New Zealand. I'd do it again for a few pragmatic reasons. 1: Lots of companies will reject you on sight without a degree. I don't think it's a good thing, but it is reality. 2: With a degree your ability to move overseas dramatically improves. I moved to America after graduating. I flat out couldn't have done that without a degree. Points based systems immigration systems…

> Grad school, in general, seems to be a rip off

Grad school is often much better for immigration scoring than a bachelors. Especially if you can manage to do the graduate degree in the country you want to immigrate to.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#48

Post by monoideism »

fountainofage wrote: post #42
monoideism wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're t…

I majored in one of the STEM fields that doesn't pay any money (chemistry), and now I do the computer stuff for a living and to make money. Given how I did the whole "do STEM and you'll never be wrong route" and it was wrong... Well, I wish I had spent those 4 years at college reading philosophy works and studying the classics. I'd probably still be in the same place I am now, but at least I wouldn't have spent 1000+…

My point wasn't about STEM vs liberal arts. I actually agree with you. Unless you're going to an elite school where you'll network with highly influential people, taking out massive loans for anything less than a totally professionally-focused degree (physician assistant, accounting, nursing) or a software-industry favored degree (computer science, math or physics) is a huge mistake.

Also, my only remaining loans are from me going back and doing a "professional" degree that proved to be fairly useless. I had thought I did my research but failed to crunch the numbers carefully enough or account for future family decisions (most employment opportunities in the field required extended foreign residence/travel). So I sympathize with taking out loans for a "responsible" degree and still coming out financially screwed.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#49

Post by 10000100001010 »

50 wrote: post #28
monoideism wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look, I'm studying undergrad philosophy...Am I getting into debt? A fair bit.. Is it worth the trade off? I certainly think so. Will I say that five years after I graduate? Not sure but most likely. Spoiler. Been there, done that. Unless you're at an Ivy, if you're majoring in philosophy, you'll not think it was worth it in five years. My sin was Classics, but similar outcome. Assuming you're on HN because you're t…

Thank you for the input. It's interesting, and hey, it might be the case down the road. But my main philosophy behind my seemingly naive post is this: I don't mind what happens. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter what is but how you think about what is that matters. Edit: I saw your edit, and again, thank you for your input. I would just like to note that I'll be graduating with ~12k in debt - I went to a comm…

I'm about to finish paying off about $65,000 dollars that I took out for my CS degree. I graduated 4 years ago and have a good paying job. So, I'm lucky to have to be paying it off early. However, even with my 6 figure income, paying off this large sum off money has been a huge burden and has majorly affected other choices in my life like investments, career (I.e. I had to take the high paying jobs), buying a house, etc etc. If I could go back and do it again I would avoid any student loans like the plague they are.

Edit: just saw your edit reply to above edit :) that is much more reasonable than the situation that I put myself into. Still, I would recommend doing everything you can to avoid the debt. Paying back 1000's of dollars is a large burden.

Re: Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns [pdf]

#50

Post by cm2012 »

monoideism wrote: post #25
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #13

One of the costs that is often excluded, if you go the "not college" route, is the toll of physical labor on one's body. Medical expenses can be substantial and you didn't earn as much as an office job may have paid.

> One of the costs that is often excluded, if you go the "not college" route, is the toll of physical labor on one's body That's why, for people interested in technology, software development is an incredible blessing. If you're clever about it, and plan ahead in HS, you can easily skip college and come out making $100,000/yr within 3-4 years, even in small markets. I've never taken a single computer science class, m…

Same for marketing. College degrees in marketing are useless. Real work experience can get you pretty good jobs much quicker
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