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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#141

Post by aylmao »

crmrc114 wrote: post #19
toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

This is why many doctors in the US get their basic medical schooling outside of the US. (Often in the Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the... )

Not the Caribbean, but I know someone who did this in Mexico.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#142

Post by thatfrenchguy »

NPMaxwell wrote: post #2

I did the same with my boys -- now both software engineers (duh). When raising children, are you going to omit how Physics affects your life? No, you'll tell about hot stoves and heavy objects on the other side of levers. You tell them about chemistry and biology: frying pan fires, food going bad, drink fluids when you're sick. We tell them about history and sociology: this group of people came to this country when t…

> that group came because they were granted land by a government. We omit money and how it works

You also omit the part where the people already living there got genocided I guess.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#143

Post by criddell »

scarface74 wrote: post #108
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything wrong with going to school for an education rather than training. Frankly, I wish there were more kids working on a liberal and fine arts education. It's one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the free-college-for-all plans being pushed by some politicians.

Why should we pay for college for an area that won’t return a positive ROI just so they can be a “better citizen of the world”?

How are you going to measure ROI?

Back 2011 the Freakonomics guys said this:

> According to the College Board, a year of tuition at a public college for an in-state student costs an average of $7,605, while a year at a private college costs an average of $27,293. Meaning that (assuming you graduate in four years) a college diploma from a public school costs about $30,000, and about $109,000 from a private school. That’s a lot of coin, but consider this: the difference in yearly income for a person with a college degree and a person with just a high school diploma is $19,550, according to the 2010 Census. So keeping things simple, on average, a public school college degree pays for itself in less than two years, and a private school diploma in less than six. Which is probably why, according to the Pew study, the vast majority of college graduates (86%) say that college was a good investment for them.

Now things are more expensive, but even if the payoff is 2x or 3x longer now, it's still an overall good investment.

Plus, who knows what the benefits would be if the US were producing millions of great global citizens each year. If those global citizens helped educate and raise the world's poorest people out of poverty, those countries would likely stabilize somewhat and maybe that would ease conflict and spending on war.

And even if all the things I just said were wrong, sometimes ROI isn't a great way to value things. For example, journalism, especially at a local level, is hard to fund yet the value isn't zero. Lots of people who don't pay for news still benefit from having eyes on the powerful.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#144

Post by beatgammit »

honkycat wrote: post #98
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Personally, I think learning a trade should be an option in high school. A trade is better than a high school diploma both in pay and practical usefulness, whereas "college prep" is almost always useless. If you learn a trade and dislike it, you should have as much time as possible to pivot to something else.

I think high schoolers should have two choices:

- Associates Degree track at a local university - apprenticeship at a local trade organization

The AA/AS by itself isn't particularly useful (a little better than a diploma though), but it gives you an introduction into college life. A trade by itself isn't particularly useful (need years of practice to master it), but it's a practical introduction to what's available without a college degree. Our current approach of teaching to standardized tests seems like the worse option since it's neither practical (college doesn't really work like the tests) nor in demand (your employer doesn't care about your standardized test scores).

Our whole education system is out of whack, and just making it free isn't going to fix it. We need more paths to success, and we currently only have one that's pushed by our education system: STEM degrees.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#145

Post by thatfrenchguy »

ArmandGrillet wrote: post #81
toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

List of probable truths when studying in Europe as an American at 18: - You've never left home for more than a month. - There will be few (if any) Americans in a European bachelor's program. - There is a 6 to 9 hours timezone difference with home. - You don't have an easy time getting information compared to with American universities. - The country will not speak English (UK aside). I know they speak english in Fren…

> I know they speak english in French and German unis

Lol in France, except in some top programs, they usually won't usefully speak English. Your landlord may be better at it.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#146

Post by thanatropism »

elil17 wrote: post #129
vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

Show them the website of the American Visionary Art Museum. It’s a museum for art made by people who never went to art school. It’s filled with stories of people who had rich lives as artists alongside other careers. You don’t need art school to be an artist. http://www.avam.org/

The museum might be cool but that website is badly designed enough to testify against this idea of being a self-taught artist.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#147

Post by thatfrenchguy »

refurb wrote: post #43
llampx wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong words. What do you learn in American university that you don't learn in, say, a German one? I know I could have done without two years of basic education in the form of GenEds.

You have to understand the American mentality. I’ve talked with parents who told me how unfortunate that their kid can’t go to a good school. The school has a score of 9.2/10 versus the school they wanted which scores 9.5/10.

We can all thank Greatschools and their Gates foundation grants for making everyone think you can assign a number to the quality of a school (which most people in the rest of the world would think is nonsense), and to perpetuate redlining by making sure your kids go to school only with other wasian people.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#148

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

david38 wrote: post #88
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

This. Pushing college the way we do helps to stigmatize the trades. Why don’t we push the trades? We give the impression they are “lesser”.

The people who work in the trades are pushing their children away from the trades. (An example is the recent HN post on Chinese restaurants closing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21871240) The hours can be long, the manual labor is hard, and the conditions are often harsh.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#149

Post by frankbreetz »

I think at least part of the solution is to involve your children in your finances. I think if they are able to understand your families monthly/yearly budget, they will be much less likely to take on a ton of debt, as they will more likely understand the consequences of their decisions.

The financial literacy in this country(USA) is absolutely terrible and I think this is one of the most important things a parent can teach there children, because they will not learn this in school. Part of the problem is that most parents themselves are not financially literate and do not have savings or budgets. Life is so much easier if you have a good understanding of money. People like to say "Money doesn't matter", security matters and freedom matters, good luck getting either of those things without money.

At this point it is very obvious the government or universities are not looking out for us in this regard, so this will be one thing my children understand.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#150

Post by JakeTheAndroid »

david38 wrote: post #88
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

This. Pushing college the way we do helps to stigmatize the trades. Why don’t we push the trades? We give the impression they are “lesser”.

I may live in a bubble in this scenario growing up with parents and their friends that did painting/contracting/electrical/plumbing/flooring/etc. but I don't ever hear them as stigmatized. I think a lot of people have a real solid view of these jobs; Physically demanding with low top end rewards.

Few people go into those jobs or unions and make 200k a year. People def make a livable wage, but it's very demanding work physically. I have a friends that do flooring and roofing and they absolutely pay the bills but they are hurting and only just approaching 30. They have months where they have tons of work, and months where they have no work at all.

So while these jobs beat entry level roles and service jobs paying 15 an hour if you're luck, they don't hold the same value as being a lawyer or a doctor or like many of us here, an engineer. My back hurts because I have bad posture and sit all day, not because I was lifting hundreds of pounds of shit all day. And my salary is higher than my buddy that is high up in his union stopping OSHA violations.

Support trades, they are valuable and important. But I don't think we should praise them as the best path to securing your future. They are jobs just like any other with their own risks and rewards.

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