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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#111

Post by jobu »

vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

I'm not an expert, and every kid is different, but when I talked with my oldest (now in her first year of college) these were the things that seemed to help her pick a direction in life:

1) The Ideal Job Venn Diagram by David Hamil (https://breakingnorms.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/ideal-job-...) It's a Venn diagram of "things you're good" at, "things you like doing", and "things that pay well". The main purpose of this is to kick off the question of whether your true passion should really be a hobby instead of a job. Also, if you don't have a "Dream Job" in mind, then start by eliminating jobs that you would hate or be terrible at. Sometimes it's just easier to pick a job that doesn't suck.

2) College is an investment in your future, so you need to understand the full costs (tuition and lost income), as well as the potential returns. What professions are you interested in and what are the average starting salaries for them? At that salary how long would it take to pay off the full cost of going to college?

Another key thing I learned is to start having the conversations well before they are stressed out about picking a college and possible career. At that point it's too emotionally charged to have a rational conversation.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#112

Post by pnathan »

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,”

That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about.

I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle.

I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well involve "we'll send you internationally: those colleges are just as good, you'll get more independent, and you will be about debt free when you get out".

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#113

Post by irrational »

What we've done with our kids is tell them from an early age that we will help them with the first year of college and after that they are on their own. So far we have 2 in college and that has been how it worked out. They knew up front that we would not help them after the first year, and neither has come to us asking for help because we were upfront with them long before they started going to college. Bottom line, set expectations early.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#114

Post by mnm1 »

tmpz22 wrote: post #103
jseliger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College, for most people, is a joke College is great for the right people but we should be emphasizing vocational education and apprenticeships for many more people. Someone who doesn't want to do the reading or do abstract symbol manipulation is a poor fit for universities: https://seliger.com/2017/06/16/rare-good-political-news-boos... . I know because I've taught many students who don't want to be in school and ar…

The problem with vocational training that /r/personalfinance and similar forums trumpet is that it often points directly to manual labor which leads to severe physical decline and often injury. I hope industries such as plumbing, welding, HVAC, construction, etc. have improved and now teach best practices for safe lifting, mandatory physical therapy, and enforce them - but I don't think they do. Effectively what we'r…

Jobs that involve typing and computer use for extended periods of time will often lead to pain and health problems. It's not a quality unique to blue collar jobs.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#115

Post by pnathan »

jawns wrote: post #104

Perhaps one way to help college-bound teenagers make these sorts of decisions is not by asking, "What careers most interest you?" but "What lifestyle do you want to live as an adult?" and then work backward from there. Teens who envision themselves living in a two-bedroom Manhattan apartment and dining out frequently could then be counseled to pursue jobs that earn enough to support that lifestyle. And teens who woul…

This is a good approach for some.

I am - and have always been - disinclined to do work I don't really enjoy. Some people - I have a good friend like this! - don't have that bit flipped in them, and for those people, your approach would be fantastic.

but without a doubt, the material economic reality needs to be discussed early on in high school.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#116

Post by k__ »

vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

Tell them that they don't have to follow their dreams 100% of the time.

If you don't plan to have a big career besides art, learn something that you can bear with and that has enough demand so you don't have to work 50h a week to pay the rent.

I know many people who simply have a vocation and an avocation. They work 3-4 days a week in an office job to pay the bills and do different stuff with the rest of the week.

Actors, musicians, tattoo artists, DJs, event organizers, illustrators, fashion designers, instagram influencers, photographers and what not.

Sure, it's cooler to do 100% of what you love, but these things really only bring fun if you can really do what you love and not have to bend yourself to apply your loved skill to some dumb projects just to make money.

I know many photographers who have to do one marriage after another, just to pay the bills and they hate it. Illustrators who have to draw corporate crap all the time etc. This sucks the soul out of your passion.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#117

Post by methehack »

scarface74 wrote: post #108
criddell wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see anything wrong with going to school for an education rather than training. Frankly, I wish there were more kids working on a liberal and fine arts education. It's one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the free-college-for-all plans being pushed by some politicians.

Why should we pay for college for an area that won’t return a positive ROI just so they can be a “better citizen of the world”?

That seems like a good reason to me, as long as the debt load isn't severe. Plus, in my experience, education enriches the everyday profoundly.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#118

Post by asdfqwer234 »

mnm1 wrote: post #97
newguy1234 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military is also a good option to college, especially if your specialty is a skilled trade. My brother did this straight out of high school. Spent a few years overseas and then eventually changed his specialty to biomedical equipment repair. When he left the service he made 60k/year and after 5 years he is at 125k/year. Also when you are in the service, you are getting paid and if you are overseas, all your bills are…

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

joining the military != fighting in a combat role

There's lots of regular work, maintenance, staffing some random base overseas etc

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#119

Post by standardUser »

jki275 wrote: post #101
mnm1 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

Extremely low probability of any of those happening. Besides, military service changes you. It gives you perspective you will never get anywhere else.

Extremely high probability compared to any other developed nation. The US fights foreign wars with alarming regularity, We are currently fighting several.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#120

Post by seanmcdirmid »

seattle_spring wrote: post #109
honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

> Part of the reason you go to school as a young person is that you do not have a family to feed or a house to pay off. If you go to art school as a young person, you won't have the problem of paying off a house because you won't have a job that qualifies you for a mortgage.

My wife went to art school and is (somewhat embarrassing to me) supporting our family with her job at Amazon while I (a CS PhD) am looking for work. We even qualify for a mortgage with her income.

(Lesson: UX designers are as important as programmers)

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