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A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

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Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#101

Post by dctoedt »

diag wrote: post #94
dctoedt wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have trouble with new words and concepts? The trouble comes when a tiny minority (i) decides that the accepted meaning of common terms no longer suits their personal preference — I refer here to the use of they as a generic singular pronoun in formal language — and (ii) insists loudly that anyone who fails to conform to their new preference is being hurtful and disrespectful instead of merely precise.

It's not up you how somebody wants to be addressed after requesting it. You don't have to harbor cruel feelings about it. Singular they has been used in English for a long time historically.

> It's not up you how somebody wants to be addressed after requesting it.

Really? If you were to ask me to address you as Your Imperial Majesty, you should not hold your breath waiting for me to comply.

Language evolves; in formal English, singular they has long been unacceptable. (Informal English is another story.)

EDIT:

>You don't have to harbor cruel feelings about it.

You're proving my point in assuming I "harbor cruel feelings" about trans people.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#102

Post by tptacek »

DuskStar wrote: post #95
tptacek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. The whole point of them is to buy time for patients to more carefully consider their path going forward. They're practically the opposite of "unproven and ill-advised". I'm not seeing the "horrible" here. But more to th…

> All a puberty blocker does is delay the onset of puberty. They're part of the medical standard of care, and have no permanent effects that require reversal; their effects end as soon as they're taken. If that's true, then that's fine! But I was under the impression that there were still significant concerns about the long term safety of those drugs. (And other allegations besides safety - I've heard that many/most…

So, let's acknowledge that we're just random people on a message board discussing a complicated topic neither of us are authoritative about, and that we're both going to do the standard message board thing of quickly Googling for resources that connect to our arguments.

With that said: the resources I found strongly suggest that puberty blockers are, especially for patients with strong dysphoria (which is dangerous in its own right!) safe and present no meaningful long-term consequences.

The more powerful argument here would be that the people who do have the most authority in this subject --- medical professionals --- appear to have achieved a consensus on this topic, and that most of the push-back on it seems to be from laypeople second-guessing them. If those laypeople themselves can generate powerful arguments, more power to them, but I don't see what they are. So far, I'm inclined to trust the doctors.

Outside of the Jordan Peterverse, I don't see "legal consequences for misgendering people" as a live issue, but I'll say right now that I'm only familiar with and interested in the debate in the US, where the story we're commenting on takes place, and which is the most important venue for the "snowflakes and safe spaces" debate.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#103

Post by manigandham »

tptacek wrote: post #78
ItsMattyG wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is of course when legitimate facts or opinions hurt others, it has the side effect of silencing others and creating a false sense of consensus (sometimes, literally, a false sense of scientific consensus) and debating the actual merit of different policies. The flipside of your statement is "I'm starting to think that only the people whose opinions aren't silenced are the ones who like safe spaces"

The reason this isn't a devastating rhetorical blow is that everyone from scientists to basement-dwelling bigots believes they have "legitimate facts" on their side. People believe all sorts of random things, and some of those things are genuinely harmful. I'm not saying I know where the line needs to be drawn, but there clearly is a line somewhere; "drink bleach to cure diseases" seems like a solid (and real!) examp…

Facts are objective truths. I don't see how discussing them could ever be a problem, regardless of how you consider the person quoting them.

"Drink bleach to cure diseases" is not a fact. I'm not sure what that example is supposed to mean. Obviously people making stuff up is a problem but isn't that the complete opposite of facts?

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#104

Post by danharaj »

dctoedt wrote: post #90
danharaj wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you use a concrete example to illustrate your claim?

I did in the edited version (I hadn't seen your question before doing the edit).

I'ma be real with you chief. That's hella shallow and pedantic.

I think it would be hurtful and disrespectful to die on such a mole hill instead of just accommodating people over something so simple.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#105

Post by tptacek »

manigandham wrote: post #103
tptacek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason this isn't a devastating rhetorical blow is that everyone from scientists to basement-dwelling bigots believes they have "legitimate facts" on their side. People believe all sorts of random things, and some of those things are genuinely harmful. I'm not saying I know where the line needs to be drawn, but there clearly is a line somewhere; "drink bleach to cure diseases" seems like a solid (and real!) examp…

Facts are objective truths. I don't see how discussing them could ever be a problem, regardless of how you consider the person quoting them. "Drink bleach to cure diseases" is not a fact. I'm not sure what that example is supposed to mean. Obviously people making stuff up is a problem but isn't that the complete opposite of facts?

How do you know what is an isn't an objective truth? People disagree about things. You've just shut down a real (and inexplicably popular) opposing view, that vaccines are poison and bleach is medicine. What gave you the right to do this?

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#106

Post by dang »

jl2718 wrote: post #30

The thing that hit me after coming back from the war, was how absolutely meaningless the vast majority of life’s required set of petty exercises are. I understand the elitism and the challenge of conquering Yale. There seems, however, to be a monumental difference between him and the rest; that is, 26 years of hardship, quiet observation, and directed action in shaping the world before reaching toward a philosophical…

It sounds like you have a similar story—if I understand correctly, you went to Stanford as a veteran? If you'd be willing to share more, I think readers here would be interested.

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#107

Post by hellomyguys »

manigandham wrote: post #100
hellomyguys wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safe spaces is a phrase people use when they don't want to call it these environments for what they actually are, which are spaces for vulnerable members of society to have a place to discuss issues that are relevant to them, without having the already dominant voices in society interjecting, usually in a disrespectful manner.

That is not at all the definition used in the article which is the point of the OP's comment. If the membership and topics are exclusive based on comfort then it is, by definition, not a safe space for any kind of difficult conversation. It's just a private club.

I think you're misunderstanding who these spaces are for and what purposes they serve.

Are also you saying difficult conversations cannot be had by people sharing similar interests or beliefs? And since when are all private clubs bad?

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#108

Post by sillysaurusx »

anon9001 wrote: post #83
sillysaurusx wrote: post #29

If you want to see what a Navy SEAL's life is like, I highly recommend this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGvvNKBGgUw "Documentary" makes it sound sterile or clinical, but in fact it's pretty badass. Kind of dispels the illusion that we're not pampered. It's so good I'll probably watch it again today. The diving section is the best, IMO. Imagine someone spinning you around underwater and ripping off pa…

This kind of training seems like it would cause a lot of injuries. Is that just an accepted part of it?

Yes and no. It’s not acceptable to overlook safety. During the documentary, there are situations where you can see the instructors prioritize the well-being of the candidates (as opposed to saying “no, keep going”). One candidate complained he was feeling dizzy, and the instructor sent the candidate to get checked even though he personally felt there was nothing wrong with him. Wish I could remember the timestamp.

There is also the concept of being rolled back due to injury. If you sprain your ankle, for example, you can’t keep going. It’s a persistent fear of all candidates, since it’s a big setback. But the flipside is that apparently you only get rolled back to when the next class catches up to where you’re at right now in training. It’s one of the cooler parts in my opinion, since you can see they truly value the candidates rather than thinking of them as disposable tools (which you occasionally feel like as a programmer...)

But, ultimately, you’re correct: it’s inherently dangerous. Everyone signs up knowing the risks.

EDIT: Found the timestamp: https://youtu.be/AGvvNKBGgUw?t=2266

Re: A Navy Seal's Semester at Yale, at Age 52

#109

Post by dctoedt »

danharaj wrote: post #104
dctoedt wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did in the edited version (I hadn't seen your question before doing the edit).

I'ma be real with you chief. That's hella shallow and pedantic. I think it would be hurtful and disrespectful to die on such a mole hill instead of just accommodating people over something so simple.

It never ceases to astonish me how ready some people are to feel hurt and disrespected — and to brand anyone who disagrees with them as "shallow and pedantic." I have no desire to expend scarce brain cycles trying to keep up with who wants to be addressed in what manner.
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