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Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

uncontactedtribes.org

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Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#121

Post by ojbyrne »

xenophanes wrote: post #27
raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

One of the more interesting books I've read recently - A Farewell to Alms - http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Alms-Brief-Economic-History/d...

has the basic argument that as a direct result of modern technology, there are people living on the planet now (in sub-saharan Africa), with the lowest standards of living ever present on this planet, significantly worse than that experienced by Paleolithic hunters and gatherers.

Uncivilized lifestyles turned out not to be that brutal, and in fact modern medicine is the primary mechanism by which the poorest countries have significantly lower standards of living than undiscovered tribes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_trap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#123

Post by raganwald »

ugh wrote: post #108
seanos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's because when we invent television we don't lose anything. Once we show these people the modern world, there is no going back. It makes it a difficult moral dilema.

When we invented cars we lost our own culture’s tradition of riding horses. It used to be the case that everyone knew how to ride a horse, now only a select few decide to preserve that tradition. Even they ride only for sport and fun, a cheap imitation of what it meant to ride a horse 200 years ago. Cars viciously destroyed the role horses play in our society, that part of our culture is forever lost. (I’m not sad.)

Good point, but we do have examples of people who choose to ride horses as part of their daily life: Certain Amish and Mennonites.

They know all about technology, they just make certain choices about it and we have found a way to get along with them making those choices.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#124

Post by Devilboy »

d3x wrote: post #35
xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

Please could we have this discussion without the ad hominem?

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#125

Post by bugsy »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

He is not making the decision. Uncontacted tribes are extremely aware of the western culture outside their area. Many tribes choose not to make contact, and when contact is forced, they might even kill the enemies who refuse to leave them alone.

There are few-to-none cases of tribes for whom forced contact with westerners* has been beneficial to them.

* If you don't like the term westerner, feel free to insert or state your own preferred term and move on rather than argue the term in an attempt to change the topic.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#126

Post by lwhi »

xenophanes wrote: post #89
lwhi wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just that many (feared and hated) leaders from history took a similar view. I'm surprised so many people on HN share it. (Did I dodge the Godwin's law bullet...?) -- Seriously though, this is exactly the point of view that was used by all colonial movements. It's antiquated, unjust and it's also completely xenophobic. I'm genuinely shocked.

Respectable people like Jacob Bronowski, David Deutsch, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- not to mention easily over 100 million Americans -- believe this kind of thing. Don't be so shocked by a mainstream point of view. It is not xenophobic to be pro-civilization, to think that allowing people the option to join civilization is good for them, or to wish aliens would come along and share advanced knowledge with us (thus radical…

Honestly - I think our politics are so far removed, that talking about this sanely would involve a hours of deprogramming on either of our parts.

My biggest problem with your point of view is that you're claiming superiority for our society, when the quality of a culture can't easily be measured.

It's equivalent of saying 'mine is the best, because it's mine'. I can't agree with it.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#127

Post by bugsy »

Charuru wrote: post #103
d3x wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply is so laced with hypocrisy its disgusting. How do you know their lives are so bad? From what the video showed they seem to be doing just fine. I would rather be A West coast armchair philosopher than an elitest who feels he is so superior to other people that I have the right to be condescending when discussing their way of life and I have the obligation to convert them to my way of thinking. FYI: one of t…

Hypothetically what would you do if these tribes had a system of slavery?

What are you doing about the non-hypothetical slavery in the US right now?

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#128

Post by BoppreH »

m_myers wrote: post #30
idm wrote: post #7

The idea of uncontacted tribes - still in existence - is awesome. ...but it's a little scary too to consider the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Sure, these tribes may not have been contacted, but what mythologies have evolved to explain the strange, huge bird in the sky that circles around them from time to time?

How do they know it's huge? From their point of view, it could be the size of a bird. The story goes that the Huaorani called Nate Saint's plane a "woodbee" before he landed near them. After all, it flies and it buzzes.

They have two eyes with slightly different perspectives, and there's also the atmosphere to color blue things that are far away, so they have some idea of how far is it.

Knowing how far and how big it looks like, you can estimate the real size.

It's part of how our eye-brain interface works.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#129

Post by hristov »

xenophanes wrote: post #27
raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

Now are you sure our way of life is better? That is a rather self centered thing to say.

How do you think they would do in Brazilian society with no property no education and no ability to speak the language? How much do you know about the lives of the poorest Brazilians and Peruvians? Do you think they get much modern medicine? These people would of course be poorer than the poorest brazilians and peruvians because even they (i) can speak the language and (ii) know something about the society they live in.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#130

Post by gort »

forensic wrote: post #101
mwhite wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "better". Primitive people's lives are short, yes. But that they are uncomfortable and brutish is at best an uninformed value judgment that supports the narrative of civilization. By any good measure of happiness, they are probably happier than us. Most of them would die from diseases of civilization in the event of contact, anyway, so I don't really see how western medicine potentially extending their lives a…

The shortness of tribal people's lives has been greatly exaggerated. In fact, it's pure myth. The book Sex at Dawn demonstrates this using the latest anthropology and archaeology if you want to know more. Until recently, it was normal for tribal societies to live longer on average than agricultural societies. All of the statistics that support the idea that tribal life is short were done very poorly and skewed by abo…

> warfare was less painful for all involved

Does that book or other sources you have give a rough idea of how rare/common death by warfare/violence is in this type of society?

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