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Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

uncontactedtribes.org

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Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#71

Post by raganwald »

Groxx wrote: post #62
raganwald wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I present the following without comment: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Isolated_trib... And especially: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sentinelese_p...

And therein lies the dilemma: one of those three choices must be made first , before we can know what their decision is. Once such a decision is known, absolutely, we should respect it as much as we are able, but to know such a thing requires significant cultural contamination.

Absolutely. At no time did I suggest I know what to do, I said we should think about it.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#72

Post by LaGrange »

d3x wrote: post #35
xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

"I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day."

Hi, I am an obsessed FB and Twitter narcissist, and I'm proud of it. I'm also happy about having access to the Western medicine, which, while not the only one, and not perfects, seems to be the only one that consistently works.

And you are not talking about giving them a "right". You are talking about choosing something for them -- we can contact them (which will unavoidably deeply alter their culture, and is quite dangerous) or not (and let them live uncomfortably). It's our choice, and we can't really run from it. By doing nothing we decide for them, whether we like it or not.

Oh, and your parent didn't really say that we should convert them. He said that we should give them access to our technology. And if that converts them, then possibly it's actually them who preferred our culture over their own.

I'm actually mostly on the side of avoiding contact for now -- but mostly because of health risks related to contact, not because I'm afraid for their culture. Culture is about the change, not about maintaining some snapshot of society.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#73

Post by raganwald »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them.

I wish I had 100 upmods to give. This is exactly what I was saying elsewhere, we should think about how we would want to be treated. Would we want medicine and education offered to us? Would we want the option for some of our elders to live out the rest of their lives in a traditional manner? Would we want bulldozers knocking down our trees? Would we want jobs driving bulldozers?

I don't know the answer, I just know that I'd want to ponder that for a good long while if I had to make a call.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#74

Post by mwhite »

xenophanes wrote: post #27
raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

Define "better".

Primitive people's lives are short, yes. But that they are uncomfortable and brutish is at best an uninformed value judgment that supports the narrative of civilization. By any good measure of happiness, they are probably happier than us. Most of them would die from diseases of civilization in the event of contact, anyway, so I don't really see how western medicine potentially extending their lives applies.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#75

Post by paulitex »

xenophanes wrote: post #27
raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

"Our way of life is better"

Ahh yes, the colonialist's mantra. Even more of a historical failure than the communist manifesto. Go look at how life 'improved' in sub saharan africa. Or the profoundly sad state of natives all over the world, in Canada, Australia, US, and beyond.

Our way of life is not better. It is not for everyone. We have huge wealth and health disparity, large scale violence, drug addiction and homeless to name but a few unsavories.

Your argument is a very old one - this is a 19th century discussion. As such I suggest you look at the history of colonialism, and the atrocities that resulted and continue to result because of it. Maybe start with Rwanda, it's pretty compelling.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#76

Post by pessimizer »

Groxx wrote: post #44
farlington wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from their faq ( http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/articles/3109-questions-and... ): "uncontacted tribes will have seen aeroplanes on numerous occasions. The idea that this damages their self-image and/or spiritual beliefs belongs in the realm of fiction, and is based on the false supposition that their cultures are fragile. Experience shows that such peoples are in fact robust and well able to adapt to outside goods…

> Experience shows that such peoples are in fact robust and well able to adapt to outside goods Yes, fairly often by either adding it to their mythology or creating a cargo cult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult Whether either of those count as "damage" is academic; it's change. Either we inflict more change or we try to prevent all change.

That's a false dichotomy.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#77

Post by xenophanes »

lwhi wrote: post #42
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

I agree - it's a shocking point of view. I'm choosing to read it as parody. EDIT: Does the downvote mean it's not parody? EDIT,EDIT: So maybe the OP was being sincere - in which case I'm v depressed.

You're mistaken. I did not post a parody. I'm serious.

That you have a hard time believing that people who disagree with you (like myself) even exist should perhaps be a wake up call to open your mind.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#79

Post by Groxx »

pessimizer wrote: post #76
Groxx wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Experience shows that such peoples are in fact robust and well able to adapt to outside goods Yes, fairly often by either adding it to their mythology or creating a cargo cult: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult Whether either of those count as "damage" is academic; it's change. Either we inflict more change or we try to prevent all change.

That's a false dichotomy.

"do or do not" is a false dichotomy? Any contact causes change, so the only way to prevent forcing change is to prevent all contact.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#80

Post by d3x »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #64
d3x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery. If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly…

Your reply is so laced with hypocrisy its disgusting. How do you know their lives are so bad? From what the video showed they seem to be doing just fine.

I would rather be A West coast armchair philosopher than an elitest who feels he is so superior to other people that I have the right to be condescending when discussing their way of life and I have the obligation to convert them to my way of thinking.

FYI: one of the main justifications for slavery - Slavery was good for the slaves; the slaveowners took on the burden of caring for the interests of inferior beings, seeing that they would be fed, clothed and given religious instruction.

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