Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe • Hacker News Board

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#61

Post by ThomPete » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:53 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #27

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

The problem with our unproven claims is that you speak from the vantage point of the advanced alien visitors speaking on the primitive cultures behalf.

I am not sure what you mean with uncivilized lifestyles. Do you mean wearing clothes? Eating with knife and fork or do you talk about dropping the bomb, invading other countries?

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#62

Post by Groxx » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:53 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #48

Groxx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either. The only 3rd alternative being "Now we wall them in, pretend they don't exist, and tell people not to tap on the glass"? And those really are the only options, unless you know of an approach that isn't fundamentally the same as one of "kill them", "bring them into our culture", or "prevent our culture from getting into theirs". I'll take door number 2, t…

I present the following without comment: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Isolated_trib... And especially: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sentinelese_p...

And therein lies the dilemma: one of those three choices must be made first, before we can know what their decision is. Once such a decision is known, absolutely, we should respect it as much as we are able, but to know such a thing requires significant cultural contamination.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#63

Post by araneae » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:53 PM UTC

elliottcarlson wrote: post #34

A trail to the articles pronouncing this a hoax/fake back in 2008: http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tr...

If you read that article, what the guy supposedly lied about was that no one else knew about them. But they do live there.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#64

Post by DanielBMarkham » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:54 PM UTC

d3x wrote: post #35

xenophanes wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

I really hope you are kidding. If not this is so typical of the american way of thinking. Yes, we are so superior lets convert them all to our [insert culture, religion etc...]. What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day. While we are at it lets make sure they all become good christians too because any…

What is so bad about leaving them alone? I would bet they are much happer than the majority of the FB and Twitter obsessed narcissist that I run into every day.

What is so bad is you making the decision for them -- one way or the other. It's that kind of pompous paternalistic attitude that caused all kinds of pain and misery.

If they are happy with a life expectancy of 30, of having mothers die in childbirth commonly, of dying of things like scratches and measles -- if they want that life, let them have it. But show and tell them what they are missing and let them decide. Don't arrogantly assume that there's something romantic about living like a caveman. It's just as whacked as automatically assuming they would want all of the modernity we enjoy.

What we've found, over and over again, is that contact with primitive cultures destroys the cultures. That's because you'd have to be a flaming idiot to want to live like that (I find the greatest supporters of "leave them alone" are armchair philosophers living all nice and comfy in the west) We can't help that, but it's no excuse to let people suffer when we can help them stop if (If they so desire) There is nothing noble in inaction.

Treat people as you would like to be treated if you were them. It's really very simple. If you'd like to rant and rave about how much modern life sucks, fine. But don't use these guys as props to do so. They deserve better than that.

By the way, this is also a pet peeve of mine, and I come at this from exactly the opposite pov. Sometimes I think "Star Trek" has done more to muddy up an entire generation of thinkers than a hundred piss-poor colleges could have ever hoped to accomplish.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#65

Post by geoffw8 » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:54 PM UTC

jbrennan wrote: post #5

I wonder what kind of disturbance just the helicopter (or whatever method was used to capture the footage) caused on the tribe. Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted, would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are and what their civilization is like. Could anyone enlighten me…

Yeah, I agree.

To be honest, I'm not sure I agree with what they've done. I have no proof, or evidence of anything, just a gut feel. That moment could have irreversibly changed each one of their lives - possibly for the worse.

Its all of our world, I know, but still. I mean, they're not zoo animals.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#66

Post by Groxx » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:55 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #56

Groxx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are basically saying that your beliefs and way of life are so superior and better than theirs that you must convert them No, they're saying that they believe their beliefs and way of life are superior, therefore they have a moral obligation to improve the lives of those less fortunate than them. Whether they're right or not is another issue, and as there's no objective way to measure such things, there is no ac…

" No, they're saying that they believe their beliefs and way of life are superior, therefore they have a moral obligation to improve the lives of those less fortunate than them. " " Whether they're right or not is another issue [..] " Morals are all about right or wrong - you can't have it both ways. -- The OPs belief is entirely objectionable. Have none of us learnt anything from history? EDIT: Actually, maybe that…

Morals are, beliefs are not. And since morals are heavily heavily based on beliefs, they are heavily influenced by the person who is determining right and wrong.

One person can't have it both ways. Two can have opposing viewpoints and still be completely, logically correct in their own eyes. It's a fundamental aspect of communication between different entities.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#67

Post by T_S_ » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:56 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #27

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

We should give them access to technology and to our way of life. Our way of life is better. Preserving their backwards culture so they can continue lives of misery and suffering is just as disgusting as the Prime Directive. Help is exactly what I would want from advanced alien visitors. I don't want them to respect my culture just because it is mine; I want something better for myself, not cultural relativism. There…

Perhaps they have something to teach us as well. We should at least ask for directions to El Dorado, before we convert them to OS X and give them some french fries.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#68

Post by araneae » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:56 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #9

You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?" We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encounte…

I think this is exactly the kind of situation where the Golden Rule fails hardcore. If I think about it in that manner, I think "I'd want the hell out!" Who I am and how I would want people to treat me is largely shaped by the culture I live in. I wouldn't be me if I lived in those tribes.

We shouldn't be thinking about how we would want to be treated in that situation, we should think about what they want, now. And that's generally for those bulldozer things to stop mowing down their homes.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#69

Post by lwhi » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:56 PM UTC

Groxx wrote: post #66

lwhi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" No, they're saying that they believe their beliefs and way of life are superior, therefore they have a moral obligation to improve the lives of those less fortunate than them. " " Whether they're right or not is another issue [..] " Morals are all about right or wrong - you can't have it both ways. -- The OPs belief is entirely objectionable. Have none of us learnt anything from history? EDIT: Actually, maybe that…

Morals are, beliefs are not. And since morals are heavily heavily based on beliefs, they are heavily influenced by the person who is determining right and wrong. One person can't have it both ways. Two can have opposing viewpoints and still be completely, logically correct in their own eyes. It's a fundamental aspect of communication between different entities.

I'm sorry, but I call BS.

Re: Aerial footage of uncontacted Amazon tribe

#70

Post by Groxx » Fri, Feb 04, 2011, 10:58 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #69

Groxx wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morals are, beliefs are not. And since morals are heavily heavily based on beliefs, they are heavily influenced by the person who is determining right and wrong. One person can't have it both ways. Two can have opposing viewpoints and still be completely, logically correct in their own eyes. It's a fundamental aspect of communication between different entities.

I'm sorry, but I call BS.

Then you need some philosophy, metaphysics, and Lincoln-Douglas style debate classes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln-Douglas_Debate

edit: how about a starting point (in no way intended to be snide / insulting, I'm entirely serious about this):

Murder is wrong, right? Why? Completely objectively, why?