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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#201

Post by bluGill »

fatnoah wrote: post #51
sakopov wrote: post #30

> Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “STEM,” as it’s known—are female. I used to live in Russia in my teenage years and went to school there until grade 9. One thing that I remember being distinctly different from public education in the US is that the course selection was provided by the school each year and students had no say in thi…

>One thing that I remember being distinctly different from public education in the US is that the course selection was provided by the school each year and students had no say in this process I grew up in the US and that was my experience as well. There were no "optional" classes until high school, but even then only one or two of my classes were my own choice.

Even when there were optional courses the school made it clear the only real option was band/choir/french/german/spanish (I think there was home-ec and shop courses available too). There was one hour free that you could pick one of the above, in theory you didn't have to take math and science the last year, but they made it clear that if you had any hope of college you better not skip them. I found out the hard way that band/choir were not really options because my college wouldn't admit me without the foreign language (I had to do catch up classes)

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#203

Post by mixmastamyk »

kaitai wrote: post #154
Reedx wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day. Which one could argue is a sane choice. If anything it's more sane. Stop trying to make them feel like something is wrong if they don't have this inclination. Males and females have different preferences on average, some as early as birth[1]. This is not a bad thing. For the ones that want to program all day, obviously they shoul…

Most people, period, are not interested in programming a computer all day. My girl child likes trucks, not Frozen, and the pressure from other adults to get her to conform and play with Disney-branded dolls is non-trivial and unrelenting. Ugh.

> the pressure from other adults to get her to conform and play with Disney-branded dolls is non-trivial and unrelenting

Throw them out, seriously. I did when they got to be too large a portion of the toys.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#204

Post by james-mcelwain »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #90
dev_by_day wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work places discriminating based on gender would be terrible. There shouldn't be "male only" work places just like there shouldn't be "female only" work places. This would be a regression to the dark ages of grouping and separating people based on biological identity, not a good idea and honestly not helpful. There is zero evidence that shows these ideas actually make students or working environments healthier and mo…

I disagree. I think pay scale disparities would also disappear if women had gender segregated work spaces. It would be a more supportive environment and less conflict. I suspect efficiency would also improve at work places. Throw a picnic or party or twice a week meeting or something for everyone to meet up...but having equal strength and equally compensated and mirror hierarchies of gender segregated work places wou…

> I don’t know how non binary people would feel about this and would like to hear more from them.

That it reeks of biological essentialism and is exclusionary by its nature.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#205

Post by AnimalMuppet »

reroute1 wrote: post #81
pj_mukh wrote: post #35

Coming from one of these countries to America, the answer seems obvious. STEM jobs have a HUGE differential in stability and status in those countries, so women put up up with much more patriarchal BS at the workplace to hold on to them. My sister was a STEM worker in India. When she moved to America, she looked around to see writers with relatively safe, high-status job and switched out immediately. Yes, women in Am…

You mean Ask People? What does any of that have to do with being a woman? Just blanket 'patriarchy bs'?

Well, you know, if the question is "Why are there so few women in STEM?", then specifically asking women might make some sense...

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#206

Post by jimbokun »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #145
Reedx wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day. Which one could argue is a sane choice. If anything it's more sane. Stop trying to make them feel like something is wrong if they don't have this inclination. Males and females have different preferences on average, some as early as birth[1]. This is not a bad thing. For the ones that want to program all day, obviously they shoul…

> Males and females have different preferences on average, and do from birth[1]. This is not a bad thing. Sure, but it seems more than a little convenient that the male-chosen professions seem to generally pay significantly more, on average, than the female-chosen ones. Haven't there been studies that showed that women moving into a profession was actually associated with pay dropping?

Are we talking about programming, specifically?

Programmers are paid relatively well because

1. Software is "eating the world", so a lot of software is being written leading to demand for programmers. 2. Programming scales really well. Software has zero reproduction cost and can reach a global audience almost instantaneously. So software companies can make a lot of money with relatively few employees.

What would be the mechanism for pay dropping when women enter a profession?

Some global masterminds reducing pay across multiple corporations across the board when they find out women are being hired in that industry?

Maybe it's just a matter of a sudden increase of supply of workers as women enter a field to meet the existing demand, driving wages down?

Is it because the women are being paid less, while the men are being paid the same as before?

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#207

Post by tenpies »

calibas wrote: post #18

Gender equality means you can enter into whatever profession you choose and not be discriminated against. It's about equal rights, equal treatment, it does not mean that men and women are the same, it's not a mathematical equality. Seems to me people are confusing conformity with social/political equality.

That's now what Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity initiatives at companies, universities, and governments are aiming for though. It's quotas for everyone and anything other than 50% females and 50% or more of "minorities" [in quotations since this is the vaguest term ever] means there is rampant racism and sexism in this toxic patriarchy.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#208

Post by SolaceQuantum »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #105
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm just kind of confused on, if there are specific gender-specific education, what happens to people who are agender, third gender, etc. Do they get to choose their own education, or is it assigned to them? How would they even know before self-actualization is fully realized in the brain for them to explore their own identities?

Good point. I don’t know. To clarify: I am not saying that education must be segregated. I am just saying that spaces...personal spaces must be segregated. I am suggesting this because how/what women consider ‘personal space’ is different from how/what men consider ‘personal space’. Speaking for myself..I can focus and concentrated better when my personal space is my domain..physical space as well as emotional/mental…

But does this mean nonbinary people shouldn't get personal spaces, or their own personal space, and what happens when someone is genderfluid, etc, do they have to shift their personal space each time they feel more male/female?

I'm mostly just trying to understand how this is applicable within my circle of friends.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#209

Post by jayd16 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #183
jayd16 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implicit bias also guides interests and choice. Many women I meet today simply did not consider the possibility of an engineering career, not that they were forced out of it. We look to outcome equality to gain some kind of insight into this.

> Many women I meet today simply did not consider the possibility of an engineering career And I'm sure many men simply did not consider the possibility of a career in female dominated professions, like nursing or elementary education. I think there's certainly something to the idea that we internalize stereotypes and that can restrict our options, but I'm skeptical that it generally explains large differences in car…

Well it's certainly an open question, although here's something that's just struck me. Careers that were dominated by women were in the orbit of doctors and lawyers, those being nurses, paralegals and secretaries. If you're thinking about being a nurse, why not consider being a doctor? I'm not sure STEM professions had these associated careers.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#210

Post by a1369209993 »

cortesoft wrote: post #100
eindiran wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends who you ask, but typically not. STEM = Science, Technology, Engineering, Math (ie the 'M' isn't 'medicine', which is what a lot of people think).

Right, but medicine is part of science.... would you argue that a Physics major isn't in STEM because P is not one of the letters of STEM?

No, it isn't; Biology is a part of science. Medicine is, as DuskStar put it, "[Science/]STEM adjacent".
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