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The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#51

Post by fatnoah »

sakopov wrote: post #30

> Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “STEM,” as it’s known—are female. I used to live in Russia in my teenage years and went to school there until grade 9. One thing that I remember being distinctly different from public education in the US is that the course selection was provided by the school each year and students had no say in thi…

>One thing that I remember being distinctly different from public education in the US is that the course selection was provided by the school each year and students had no say in this process

I grew up in the US and that was my experience as well. There were no "optional" classes until high school, but even then only one or two of my classes were my own choice.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#52

Post by omarhaneef »

"Just 18 percent of American computer-science college degrees go to women.... Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “stem,” as it’s known—are female."

Wait, so they're comparing computer science with all of STEM? That might obfuscate the picture. It should be STEM:STEM.

Edit: Perhaps I am not being clear but computer science is a subset of STEM, so even within the US, the number of people going into STEM > Computer Science. Comparing STEM in country X with CS in country Y seems like the wrong comparison.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#53

Post by iamsb »

throwaway8548 wrote: post #41
iamsb wrote: post #22

The most important thing that matters is ability to earn a decent living. Decent living is essentially ability to afford most things like a property in good neighborhoods, personal identity (clothes), transportation, quality education for children, and safety. People are really smart and they optimise for their own survival. Essentially - decent wage -> better options for partner -> better standard of living. In some…

But why doesn't this affect men's decision making as well?

It absolutely does. I know many men in India who would rather do something else than do engineering. Look at the background of most standup comedians in India for example. Most of them come from engineering/stem background and use that to fulfill their side hustle to be a comic and then become full time comics if successful. I was personally far more interested in studying classic Sanskrit literature, but was talked into becoming an engineer.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#54

Post by maxnoe »

nervousvarun wrote: post #49
DuskStar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I always have with this argument is "Why not medicine? Why not Law?" Why is it that two professions that you'd naively expect to be just as sexist, if not far more sexist than STEM (Higher status, more of an "old boys club", established hierarchy that has positions like nurses for women, etc) have achieved gender parity, while STEM hasn't?

Not necessarily disagreeing or commenting on your point, but doesn't medicine typically fall under STEM?

NOOO. Science, Technics, Engineering, Math.

The M is not for Medicine

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#55

Post by kleer001 »

pj_mukh wrote: post #35

Coming from one of these countries to America, the answer seems obvious. STEM jobs have a HUGE differential in stability and status in those countries, so women put up up with much more patriarchal BS at the workplace to hold on to them. My sister was a STEM worker in India. When she moved to America, she looked around to see writers with relatively safe, high-status job and switched out immediately. Yes, women in Am…

> tl;dr: Ask Women.

This would be an amazing survey. I look forward to its publishing. I wouldn't be surprised if someone is doing it as we speak. It shouldn't be too hard or cost that much.

Though, I do have to say, your sample of one is not sufficiently convincing to me.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#56

Post by edoo »

omarhaneef wrote: post #52

"Just 18 percent of American computer-science college degrees go to women.... Meanwhile, in Algeria, 41 percent of college graduates in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and math—or “stem,” as it’s known—are female." Wait, so they're comparing computer science with all of STEM? That might obfuscate the picture. It should be STEM:STEM. Edit: Perhaps I am not being clear but computer science is a subset o…

I'm pretty sure it has been proven most genius women go into medicine and most genius men go into engineering. The genius part means you get to pick your path. Biological imperatives are at play.

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#57

Post by banads »

DuskStar wrote: post #7
banads wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it even possible to prove objective causation in a complex social sciences study, since there can be no control group?

Yeah, by the same logic you can't blame sexism or racism for any differences in outcomes, since there's no control group there either.

It would seem any univariate analysis of social dynamics is by default erroneous

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#58

Post by DuskStar »

nervousvarun wrote: post #49
DuskStar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I always have with this argument is "Why not medicine? Why not Law?" Why is it that two professions that you'd naively expect to be just as sexist, if not far more sexist than STEM (Higher status, more of an "old boys club", established hierarchy that has positions like nurses for women, etc) have achieved gender parity, while STEM hasn't?

Not necessarily disagreeing or commenting on your point, but doesn't medicine typically fall under STEM?

Not that I'm aware - Science Technology Engineering Math is the definition of STEM I see most frequently. I'd consider Medicine to be heavily STEM adjacent, particularly in the US where most doctors get a bachelors in a STEM field before heading to med school, but not a part of it.

Googling around seems that it's contentious, and that a lot of people consider nurses, physicians etc to be STEM careers under the 'science' heading. But this doesn't seem all that core to me. (And you have to draw the line somewhere - are psychiatrists STEM? How about psychologists?)

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#59

Post by michaelt »

nervousvarun wrote: post #49
DuskStar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I always have with this argument is "Why not medicine? Why not Law?" Why is it that two professions that you'd naively expect to be just as sexist, if not far more sexist than STEM (Higher status, more of an "old boys club", established hierarchy that has positions like nurses for women, etc) have achieved gender parity, while STEM hasn't?

Not necessarily disagreeing or commenting on your point, but doesn't medicine typically fall under STEM?

Some people use STEMM for “science technology engineering mathematics and medicine”

Medicine-aligned subjects do a lot to improve the gender ratio, if one wants to improve the gender equality figures...

Re: The More Gender Equality, the Fewer Women in STEM (2018)

#60

Post by eindiran »

nervousvarun wrote: post #49
DuskStar wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I always have with this argument is "Why not medicine? Why not Law?" Why is it that two professions that you'd naively expect to be just as sexist, if not far more sexist than STEM (Higher status, more of an "old boys club", established hierarchy that has positions like nurses for women, etc) have achieved gender parity, while STEM hasn't?

Not necessarily disagreeing or commenting on your point, but doesn't medicine typically fall under STEM?

It depends who you ask, but typically not. STEM = Science, Technology, Engineering, Math (ie the 'M' isn't 'medicine', which is what a lot of people think).
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