Live data from Hacker News

Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

bbc.com

201–210 of 443 posts

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Irish are an ethnicity, not a race. Racism is often considered antagonism based on race or ethnicity. The terms are very closely linked, though it may have been better for me to say "ethnicity." >Not in the "X are inferior/KKK/etc" sense, which is what we should be concerned with So what grudges do you think the Irish held leading to this stereotype? I don't get the rest of your argument. It seems to be "my country…

I wasn't sure until this comment, but now I'm 100% convinced you're American.

You could have just asked, but I don't think it's particularly important information.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A wild untrained human animal isn't that bright. We can probably operate above the crow level, but maybe not by much. What makes us special is persistent collective learning and abstract communication. Unlike animals, generations of humans don't have to keep re-solving the same problems. As a species we have cumulative persistent memory for techniques and abstractions. That's the real game changer. But it took a surp…

Crows do this to some extent. They gather collective knowledge and pass it on to their offspring. If you act maliciously towards a crow, it will teach its friends that you are dangerous, and they will all warn each other if you approach. This will keep happening even after the original crows are dead, because they will teach their children that you are an asshole, too, even though those children may never have seen y…

Yes, and that's a step up from a blank slate for every generation. But humans take it much further by creating powerful abstractions, and transmitting specifics and abstractions in a form that survives the death of the original creator.

I can read Newton's Principia online, or take an undergrad physics course. His insights are still shaping our world view even though he's been dead for centuries now.

Only humans have worked out how to abstract the intelligence from individuals into lasting communications that don't require face-to-face transmission.

Unfortunately we've only done this about selective topics. Personal relationships and political and economic systems still work relatively badly because they don't have anything equivalent to the cumulative summary, insight, and abstraction processes at the core of science and technology.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't get the rest of your argument. It seems to be "my country doesn't have a problem with racism so racist comments are fine." It's more "A culture that has historically had heavy racism problems should not export their overcompensating hysteria that everything touching on ethnicity/race is racism and consider its own preoccupations universally applicable". > So what grudges do you think the Irish held leading…

>It's more... I'm curious where you're from that you think doesn't have a similar history, but it still boils down to "if you don't have a racism problem it's not actually racist." I don't get that logic, you can argue it's not harmful but it's still racism. >Why not ask the Irish themselves? I find it strange that all the Irish you are asking are speaking English, but the Irish Times hits why this is offensive. >Wel…

>I'm curious where you're from that you think doesn't have a similar history, but it still boils down to "if you don't have a racism problem it's not actually racist." I don't get that logic

Note that I never said "If a place doesn't have a racism problem then them doing racist acts is OK / it's not racist".

My argument is "Places with heavy racist history tend to look at all kind of non-racist acts as racist, either from guilt or to overcompensate, and then try to force their hyper-sensitivity on others".

Instead of getting sensitive about stereotypes like "Irish can hold a grudge", "the Italians like pasta", "Scots are tightwads", "Germans have no humor", "Greeks are fiscally irresponsible", "Asians do everything better" or whatever as "racism", better act on actual racism, like systemic racism, redlining, over-representation of blacks in what's the biggest prison population in the world, racist cop shootings, college admissions, under-funded districts, WASP domination, etc.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#204
Does the title really fit the article? The article discusses how smart crows are. It doesn't compare them in any way to other smart non-primates like elephants, cetaceans and cephalopods. Of course their tool use is a pretty big deal, but it's not the only aspect of intelligence. Squids have shown to be amazing problem solvers too.

By the way, a while back I read that the tool-using crows of New Caledonia had their eyes more to the front than other crows, and someone used that to discover that another group of crows (on Hawaii I think) also used tools.

(edit: rephrased the last bit to make it more clear)

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#205
post #25

Previously I heard about crows in Japan leaving nuts on the way of the cars to crash them when traffic lights are red and collecting them the next cycle. This summer I witnessed the exact same thing when I was driving through a particularly jammy traffic light here in Europe. Are these crows inventing the method over and over again independently, like scientists finding the same thing at the same time in different pa…

I wonder if what makes humans "intelligent" is exactly this. Plus we have a 70-90 years of life. Which is long enough to learn and do stuff, compare that to 10-15 years for your average crow.

We start bombarding babies with information since a very early age. Parents, are incentivized to teach their babies how to talk, walk, read, write, do stuff, eat, sing, etc... The amount of cognitive exercise is insane. And a human will only be able to "say" something useful until he is 7-8 year old. He's kinda of a "retard" before that. That's 7-8 years of training just to get started.

Then humans get bombarded with education: Math, Physics, Language, Writing, Sports, etc... And they are a strict about going to school and performing well. That would take another 12-15 years of your life to, hopefully, learn something useful to society. Add to that 3-4 years of learning in the job, and a human is only able to bring food to the table after 25-26 years of learning and training.

That's a hell lot of time. No other animals in the wild are given this chance. Let alone their environments and their physical capacities are taken into consideration. We judge animal intelligence by comparing it to our self-architectured modern environment.

tl;dr: Humans might not be smart after all. It might be that we have been lucky that our ancestors have started the ball rolling and we have had enough time during our lifetime to make up for the initial investment of learning.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#206
post #20

We have crows and jackrabbits in our neighborhood. You drive down the road toward a bunch (I think they prefer the term "murder") of crows having a meeting in the middle of the road. They'll eventually start nonchalantly strolling to the side at a calm, measured pace perfectly timed to just barely get out of the way as you pass and stroll back again, no feathers ruffled. Jackrabbits will be sitting safely in the gras…

Pigeons do the exact same though, I never slow down for them because I know they always fly out of the way just in time, even when it looks like you're about to roll over them.

Well, you should. Pigeons can have an illness or fights that make them loose some toes and because of this, they can walk slowly or not react as fast as the others. One day I saw one on the street while a truck was comming fast towards it. I heard pretty clear a "plop" sound, like the sound of a bag exploding. I just hear it because I didn't want to look at it. It's not the kind of image you want to remember.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#207
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to be fairer (to crows), I've witnessed crows just cross the yellow painted lines in a road to get to safety. They've adapted to our traffic rules.

They 'bomb' the street with walnuts where i live to open them. That's smart but not that impressive. What's impressive is - they don't do it on the parking lots where cars rarely drive, nor on the main road where cars drive constantly. They target pedestrian crossing near the main road, wait for cars to crack the walnut, then eat it. They understand where the perfect number of cars is gonna be.

Could also just be trial and error.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#208

Crows are known to give "presents" to humans they like, such as dropping small pieces of metal they picked up, or worms. Also, crows have very rich tribal behaviours going on. There's a town close to mine called Husum (in North Germany) where there's a multi-year battle going on between crows in the park. You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

Cats tend to bring gifts too.

My grandmother used to receive that of dead moles, freshly caught mice and what have you, invariably placed dead center on her pillow. She wasn't a fan of that cat before, and she didn't like it much better after. No idea why.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#209

This article focuses mostly on problem solving, planning, and tool use as the primary hallmarks of intelligence. But what problem does writing a poem solve? Do you have to be intelligent to write a great poem? What about the intelligence need to compose a great whale song[1]? Or paint a great painting? These are things not measured on intelligence tests and that don't fit well in to scientific experiments because the…

Quantification seems to be the degradation of perception towards the proper understanding of human ability. It seems realistic to say that humans prefer simple matrices with which to view reality.

Consider when someone common argues politics, but their first inclination is to fall back to statistics. They have now canceled out the component sum of all other elements in the set of understanding, only to rely on numbers as the indicator of truth.

Boethius once wrote about the 10 properties of man, one being number, and the others being place, position, attributes...etc. Yet, most of these are rarely used when you really get down to it.

Ezra Pound once made a statement that poetry is language charged with meaning to the utmost.

And there really lies the connection I mean to give. Poetry is that which embraces Boethius' 10 properties including the numeric. Math in the most pure sense is focused only on quantity until it is applied to a context. (Physics, etc).

Language in itself is, discounting the vocal portions, a tool of symbolic manipulation. And from this one can generate a theory of linguistics, much like the Greeks, as that which binds symbols to images within a context, and the intended excitation of the senses.

Even math is explained and used as bound symbols within a context followed by a sort of kinesthetic sense.

Atop both of these, respectively, is grammar and the rules of mathematics.

Anyway, this is getting too long for a comment but this is my point.

- I think language and math are under a unified form of intelligence because the utilities used to perform them reach towards the same foundation.

- Poetry and writing is underappreciated not because it is technically inept, but for the reason that society has currently degraded it's understanding towards a single attribute (the numeric) and interprets anything that isn't a number as something which must originate from emotion.

- Emotion is hard to quantify so it is viewed as a isolated creative art that is not perceived as a criteria for what people mean when they think about intelligence.

- The author and the poet can and should be using their art with a technical foundation.

- Our current writers actually imply the state of society far greater than we think, which is ironic because they have the power to lead society.

- Intelligence tests as a metric imply an end result which is numeric. This is not a whole picture. Even if the number is representative of an abstract process used to indicate the success of solving a problem.

In other, other words, writing is viewed as a lesser art when it comes to quantifying intelligence because it is incompatible with such a motion in a world where the only viewpoint funnels into the numeric. It is also lesser because the quality of contemporary writing has a stark contrast to those works before us.

Post reply on HN