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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#311

Post by ameister14 »

brudgers wrote: post #291
ameister14 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Activists, yes - but not really through marching. Money, judicial challenges and coordinated political action to promote marriage equality as a goal were the key. The debate was reframed, messaging was crafted carefully and the groups organizing and paying for it all were extremely organized and cohesive. The Proteus fund and specifically the CMC did a heck of a lot here.

The quilt spread across the National Mall was little but a march on Washington.

Which quilt? I agree, but I'm not certain what your point is.

Re: The Real Class War

#312

Post by AnimalMuppet »

helen___keller wrote: post #215
xwowsersx wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but that's an argument that the person that the "working class" voted in has been ineffectual in bringing about the change they are looking for (debatable). That's not an argument that they are not decisive in shaping politics. If electing Trump is a referendum on "the elite" then his election proves the opposite, no?

I think I might agree with the author in a more limited context, that on an institution by institution basis there is a fair amount of power that is outside the reach of voting and hence outside the influence of the working class. An example here is the federal reserve. Interest rate decisions and quantitative easing decisions are vastly influential, and famously independent of the president. I don't subscribe to any…

Re interest rates:

If you look longer term, after WWII there was this cycle of recession and recovery, but each recovery was at higher interest rates. This lasted until 1979. Then the Fed, led by Volcker, changed policy. Since then, each cycle has been at lower interest rates - but higher unemployment.

Re: The Real Class War

#313

Post by kingkawn »

larnmar wrote: post #12
kingkawn wrote: post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

The election of Donald Trump could be seen as the result of the radicalisation of the working class.

I’m not sure why you’re downvoted, this is definitely true at least for the white uneducated working class. Yes, it is a reflection of old ideology that was used to exploit them in the past, so it is tragic that this is where their expression of group assertion is getting its start.

Yet I think as the public discourse among this group continues to grow in sophistication it will develop a more nuanced worldview and will assert its power with greater wisdom.

Re: The Real Class War

#314

Post by ip26 »

shevek_ wrote: post #262

From 2018-2019, we saw teachers protests and strikes lead to massive concessions being gained in 7/9 states they occurred in, most of which were red states. The working class has a considerable amount of power when wielded correctly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_education_work... Eric Blanc's Red State Revolt is another great source on this https://www.versobooks.com/books/2955-red-state-revolt

The working class has a considerable amount of power when wielded correctly

I'm not normally a conspiracist, but increasingly it looks like neoliberalism's sharp departure from collectivism is very much on purpose.

Re: The Real Class War

#315

Post by istjohn »

andreilys wrote: post #304
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

“ We have benefited I think, and we've had opportunities to invest and sell into those markets we wouldn't have otherwise had.” The we in this case being those who have easy access to capital. Those who have seen their wages stagnate or jobs erased could care less about what happens to the citizens in another country when they themselves struggle to put food on the table.

Well, I'm one of the losers--my blue collar parents did better than me and most of my siblings. And I am genuinely happy for those who have risen out of abject poverty thanks to globalization. The fact is, there is no reason we couldn't have spread the costs and benefits of globalization across society.

Re: The Real Class War

#316

Post by mrguyorama »

tjpnz wrote: post #59

>Since at least 2016, the divide between the “working class” and the “elite” has been considered a defining issue in American (and Western) politics. I watch a bit of US news (CNN et cetera) when travelling and almost never hear it defined in those terms. Based on what I've seen the debate is almost entirely framed in terms of the "middle class" and the elites.

Always remember that here in American, nobody is poor, they are merely a Temporarily embarrassed millionaire

Re: The Real Class War

#317

Post by danaris »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #273
danaris wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that they have stolen it. Through lobbying and other means, they've gotten the laws changed so that it's much easier for them to hoard vast amounts of money and not be taxed on it (low capital gains taxes, offshore tax shelters, etc). Simultaneously, they've gutted the power of unions, reduced social safety nets, and convinced a huge chunk of America that the ones that are really to blame are other poor people…

I don't think that's a helpful way to look at the issue. You're pointing at real phenomenon, and it probably is true that the policies you're describing disproportionately benefit wealthy people. But there's no point where "they" looked at society and said "hey, let's steal the average American's money so that we can be richer". If you're looking for cartoon villains, you're not going to be able to make progress in t…

Oh, I actually quite agree—at least in part. Jeff Bezos isn't sitting in Washington rubbing his hands together, twirling his little mustache and cackling with glee every time an Amazon warehouse worker pees in a bottle.

But...who would? I mean, that's not the behavior of real people. That's the problem, and the way these things are allowed to happen—people have a hard time understanding that real people, who love their family and tell jokes and have opinions about Game of Thrones, can do terrible, evil things.

It's not that the extremely wealthy actively seek the suffering of those beneath them (mostly; there are probably a few who are weird enough, but it's not enough to make a policy out of). It's that they don't care...or, worse, they see it as some kind of necessary evil to make the pure libertarian utopia they envision. And indeed, the idea that many of them are based in principles of individual freedom is a huge part of how they've sold the whole lot, despite the fact that carrying those principles to any sort of logical conclusion inevitably results in terrible suffering among real people.

But while I agree that there wasn't some intentional conspiracy meeting where they laid out a New World Order-type plot to take 99% of all the world's wealth, that doesn't mean that all the various efforts to enrich the wealthy aren't very deliberate—and to some degree coordinated.

Actions do not have to be taken by cartoonishly evil people to have cartoonishly evil outcomes, and looking around at America today, I can't help but think that's where we've ended up.

Re: The Real Class War

#318

Post by antiutopian »

api wrote: post #264
shevek_ wrote: post #262

From 2018-2019, we saw teachers protests and strikes lead to massive concessions being gained in 7/9 states they occurred in, most of which were red states. The working class has a considerable amount of power when wielded correctly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%9319_education_work... Eric Blanc's Red State Revolt is another great source on this https://www.versobooks.com/books/2955-red-state-revolt

As it stands any broad based working class revolt in the US can be effectively nullified by bringing up a culture war issue like abortion, homosexuality, etc. and using it to split the electorate. This has been true for a long time. These issues evoke emotional responses that easily override any rational concern for one's economic well being. Whether intentional or not, the culture war continues to be the most effect…

Red State Revolt (referenced in parent) has material in it showing how in practice class battles have the potential to cut across other social questions like party loyalty for example. There was a new-found unity in the teachers strikes. Economics is the sturdiest division in society because it is most rooted in the day to day life of everybody. Some people are bosses, and some people have to work for them 8+ hours every day.

Re: The Real Class War

#319

Post by dcolkitt »

theflyinghorse wrote: post #213
dcolkitt wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class) Wrong. Middle-class Americans have captured gains through cheaper, higher-quality products than would have otherwise existed without trade and development. Are you using a phone made in China, or wearing clothes made in Bangladesh, or eat fresh fruit in…

> Wrong. Sure, we can say that there has been some benefit to the middle class in the West through reduced price on some of the goods but certainly not on big bill items such as housing and education. It's great that I can buy a cheap jacket and keep some of my income, it sucks that my housing expanses went from 1/5 to 1/2 of my income (as an example). Overall an American worker who lost his well paying manufacturing…

> but certainly not on big bill items such as housing and education

On average, housing expenditures only makes up about 25% of American household income. And education expenditures are nearly a rounding error at 1.8%.

Adjusted for inflation the median cost per square foot of a new home in the US actually fell by 8% from 1992 to 2018. It's true that Americans are spending more on housing than in the past, but that's mostly because they're buying significantly bigger houses.

The median new home saw its square footage increase by more than 50% since 1985. Despite a decline in the average household size. And that doesn't even cover the significant increase in quality in things like central AC, attached garages, fire safety, higher ceilings, high ampere electrical circuits, better insulation, etc.

The HN community is biased on this topic because they tend to live in HCoL metros like the Bay Area and to only recently be out of school.

But the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of middle America in flyover states has not seen any significant loss of affordability in housing. That should tell you that the problem isn't globalization, it's the San Francisco zoning board.

> Overall an American worker who lost his well paying manufacturing job and replaced it with a job at walmart lost massively.

Since 1980 the decline in manufacturing employment have been more than offset by growth in high-paying jobs in healthcare, education, professional services, real estate, and financial services.

American manufacturing output is at an all-time. There's huge job shortages in the industry, and American factories are desperate for workers. That should tell you that manufacturing jobs were never "replaced", rather Americans workers decided to move to other industries.

Manufacturing jobs are good-paying, but dangerous, physically demanding and unpleasant. Most workers who left decided to either go to skilled construction trades or natural resource extraction, where pay is significantly better. Or they decided to become skilled professionals like nurses, teachers, or realtors, where pay is still good but working conditions are significantly better.

[0] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm [1] https://www.census.gov/construction/chars/ [2] https://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/sftotalmedavgsqft.pdf [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/03/job-gains-for-the-manufactur... [4] https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/30044/manufacturing-worke... [5] https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/article/current-employment...

Re: The Real Class War

#320

Post by sodafountan »

triceratops wrote: post #240
sodafountan wrote: post #172

Virtually every problem listed in this article is solved if bitcoin continues its historic rise - and yet you mention bitcoin on hacker news and you're down-voted to oblivion, it really is unbelievable. The "Elites" are getting richer because capital is being used to accumulate more capital through dividends on stocks and revenue producing assets. The only reason money is being funneled into these assets is because t…

I can't tell if this is a parody post or not. But I will try to understand it. > Bitcoin doesn't have a dividend...in order to realize any gains you have to sell it So...like gold and silver? We've already had those for millennia. We've also had inequality for millennia - and at times it was way worse than it is now. > The script gets flipped if that asset is a hard, un-inflatable asset like bitcoin with a built in s…

> So...like gold and silver?

Yes, except gold and silver don't scale. Bitcoin scales, it's almost infinitely divisible and can be traded without a third party on the internet. It's Gold 2.0.

> I'm trying to understand this. If everyone puts their money into Bitcoin, inflation won't eat the value of their money so they won't try to increase it by investing into dividend-producing businesses? Otherwise how is this "script" "flipped? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

No, but if bitcoin proves to be the better investment (which it has over the last decade of its existence) people will put their money where they can get the best return. Bitcoin is still largely unproven and considered risky but the more times it increases exponentially in value the more stable and secure it will seem.

To put it another way - If I had 1 million dollars ten years ago conventional wisdom would have said the absolute best place I could have put it was either the stock market or into real-estate. Looking back obviously there would have been no better place to put it than into bitcoin but nobody knew that back then.

The more people who move their investments away from "Conventional" investments like real-estate and into more inclusive assets like bitcoin the better it is for society as a whole. It's well documented that one of the big reasons silicon valley is so expensive to live in is because Chinese investors are moving in and purchasing real-estate just to sit on, good for them, bad for people in the area who get no piece of that economic action.

I could go on and on. I'm not going to pick apart every point you made but I certainly can, I think you'll see the light in a few years when bitcoin does what it does and skyrockets again.

Can I ask you this though: Do you think bitcoin will gain in value from this point on or do you think bitcoin will fizzle out, and why do you think that?

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