Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true • Hacker News Board

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#171

Post by dv_dt » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:00 PM UTC

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #139

dv_dt wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the unethical part we get into with Target/Walmart/et al is the staffing of multiple shifts of part time work when it's obvious by the numbers that they're avoiding paying benefits for the hiring of fewer full time workers. The systemic question here is if we should allow it to be a financial advantage for companies to do that - especially large profitable ones with a footprint all over our nation.

Ironically, consolidating the same amount of hours in fewer employees suffers the same effects people say raising minimum wage does -- reducing the total number of people involved. Some people get more hours and benefits, others get fired.

Yes that's a poor and hopefully temporary side effect - but it would get more people covered with medical benefits. It may also not be that bad en effect because unfair scheduling practices for the part time hires. The part-time scheduling is reported to take up essentially full time commitments to be on "standby" with poor stability in the scheduled times on/off. So if one wasn't instantly available to come off standby, one would get penalized - to avoid that, you couldn't take other part time work.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#172

Post by buboard » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

The question is did this raise average wages? There is litle benefit otherwise unless the min wage is way too low

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#173

Post by elamje » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

I am not educated enough about the topic to pick a side about if higher wages will lead to less jobs, but from my perspective I would imagine the evidence to reveal itself in a recession, not the current economy.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#174

Post by downerending » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #170

downerending wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would say that the debate is whether raising minimum wage even has a net beneficial effect for those at the bottom of society. The fact that we still have no clarity after looking at this closely for decades suggests that it's probably close to a wash, randomly benefiting some of the poor at the expense of others.

Sorry, can you cite some of the "Some" who would say that? I'm not aware of any serious research showing that minimum wage laws actually hurt "some of the poor" (I mean, like all regulation, they aren't perfectly targetted), but would be curious to see it.

I meant some of us here in the peanut gallery.

(As to whether there are losers as well as winners when the minimum wage is implemented, this seems obvious, and I doubt anyone on any side would seriously try to dispute it. The question is the relative effect.)

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#175

Post by Izkata » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #114

michaelmrose wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method of quoting is unreadable on mobile

Selecting correct presentation methods should be up to the platform, not the users.

And the platform says that particular syntax is intended for code: https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#176

Post by cthor » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

UnFleshedOne wrote: post #114

michaelmrose wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This method of quoting is unreadable on mobile

Selecting correct presentation methods should be up to the platform, not the users.

It's formatted as a code block, saying don't wrap these lines. But that's not a good idea when it's a long piece of English text.

Is the platform supposed to run some ML algorithm on every code block to decide if it's actually code, and override the explicit don't wrap these lines syntax if it decides it's not actually code?

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#177

Post by cosmodisk » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

pg_bot wrote: post #56

You might not lose your job, but you may see your hours reduced or you might not get the opportunity in the first place. Technically the employment numbers don't change, but you shouldn't think of of minimum wage employees like salaried employees. Minimum wage earners can lose fractional percentages of their jobs unlike salaried employees. Most proponents of raising the minimum wage cite the Card & Krueger paper whic…

To compare the US model with any of those countries is laughable at best. First of all, most,if not all, of them made long term investments in their people in terms of education, which took decades before they could reap the benefits.The economies transformed into service and high end manufacturing. Secondly, they do have very strong welfare systems,that take care of pretty much everything. Public healthcare is free( through taxation) or inexpensive. These factors create society,where people aren't desperate to lose jobs because they won't be able to go to hospital or buy food. That's why they don't and won't work for a fraction of what it costs to at least exist in those countries.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#178

Post by larnmar » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #170

downerending wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would say that the debate is whether raising minimum wage even has a net beneficial effect for those at the bottom of society. The fact that we still have no clarity after looking at this closely for decades suggests that it's probably close to a wash, randomly benefiting some of the poor at the expense of others.

Sorry, can you cite some of the "Some" who would say that? I'm not aware of any serious research showing that minimum wage laws actually hurt "some of the poor" (I mean, like all regulation, they aren't perfectly targetted), but would be curious to see it.

In the US, for instance, you have a massive (and very deliberately created) population of illegal aliens who can’t legally work anyway, so are unaffected by minimum wage laws. Raising minimum wage has the effect of making legal employees even less competitive with illegal ones, and since the authorities have no interest in enforcing their own laws, legal employment at the unskilled end is a sucker’s game.

This, I suspect, accounts for much of the backsliding in the last few decades among black and poor white populations in the US.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#179

Post by pbhjpbhj » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

xinsight wrote: post #90

roflchoppa2 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it difficult for your wifes business to make money, and pay your employees at $15 (or more)? Serious question.

If it is difficult, then it's not a very good business. Serious question: Why would you want to run a business that can only survive by paying people poverty wages?

Serious answer: to achieve a particular lifestyle that's not available to you any other way.

We ran a pottery studio for 15 years whilst we raised our kids; very low wages, below minimum wage but paid our workers minimum wage (despite not needing to, because of age [in UK]).

The market we wanted to serve, a relatively poor UK city, couldn't take higher costs. So to provide that service - which brought us and many others much joy - we could only do it by accepting poverty wages. More money would have been good, but money isn't everything.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#180

Post by qzx_pierri » Mon, Nov 25, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #168

How many of the people arguing for keeping the minimum wage unchanged were arguing that in good faith? In general, increasing pay into people at the bottom of the ladder has a much bigger economic effect than the opposite. Reasonable increases in the minimum wage, particularly ones that track inflation and cost of living are not going to harm the economy. As many have pointed out, the minimum wage in many places has…

This is true, but people who argue for it most vocally refuse to acknowledge the fact that it’s not economically feasible to reward the lowest paid people with a MUCH MORE than comfortable lifestyle. The minimum wage is for two things: To prevent the exploitation of workers at a certain level, and to allow workers to support themselves.

Some people also fail to realize that there will always be poor people. The only thing we can do is change the way we treat them. I support raising the minimum wage, but not as much as some. If there are really no other jobs, that’s what government assistance programs are for.

Mind you, I grew up dirt poor in the midwest. I’m now on my way to earning six figures by taking advantage of those aforementioned government programs.

Also: Some people are satisfied being poor. If they really wanted to get out, they would. I did. Those who argue that you can’t raise a family on minimum wage: You shouldn’t keep having kids if you don’t have a decent job. Of course uneducated people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds refuse to follow this rule, and this is why poverty is often generational.