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Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#51

Post by atypicality »

Flozzin wrote: post #17
darawk wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

If a business can only exist if you exploit your labor force, then maybe your business shouldn't exist. The portion of people that work jobs for fun or a little extra income are a minority. There are more examples of people working several minimum wage jobs just trying to survive. Maybe there is a compromise somewhere though. How about if you pay the minimum wage, then the owners/stake holders cannot make more than t…

> If a business can only exist if you exploit your labor force, then maybe your business shouldn't exist.

Say bye-bye to your iPhone and all of your other beloved gadgets.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#52

Post by helpPeople »

mullingitover wrote: post #9

Minimum wage isn't just flat for a decade, it's not being adjusted for inflation. This means minimum wage workers have been getting a pay cut over time. The debate isn't just whether we should raise minimum wage, it's whether we should be cutting it. By allowing it to remain stagnant we're making the default decision to cut.

Not sure your area, but unskilled labor goes for 15$/hr in metro Detroit.

You cannot get people to show up for less than that.

Source, wife owns a business and that's going rate to answer phones.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#53

Post by andymockli »

FabHK wrote: post #34
d357r0y3r wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong. This is a strawman. Austerity isn't a cure, it's a consequence. If you spend too much and have too much debt, you can't borrow more to make the problem go away; you're just delaying the inevitable.

No, it's not a straw man. Austerity has very much been promoted as a cure; it was not an inevitable consequence of the economic situation. The debate is maybe best exemplified by the debate between Krugman ("against austerity") and Reinhart/Rogoff ("pro austerity"). > Nobel laureate Paul Krugman refused to back down in a dispute with Harvard University economists Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff over a 2010 paper t…

To add to your links: https://contrakrugman.com/

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#54

Post by roflchoppa2 »

helpPeople wrote: post #52
mullingitover wrote: post #9

Minimum wage isn't just flat for a decade, it's not being adjusted for inflation. This means minimum wage workers have been getting a pay cut over time. The debate isn't just whether we should raise minimum wage, it's whether we should be cutting it. By allowing it to remain stagnant we're making the default decision to cut.

Not sure your area, but unskilled labor goes for 15$/hr in metro Detroit. You cannot get people to show up for less than that. Source, wife owns a business and that's going rate to answer phones.

is it difficult for your wifes business to make money, and pay your employees at $15 (or more)? Serious question.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#55

Post by noja »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #32
mullingitover wrote: post #9

Minimum wage isn't just flat for a decade, it's not being adjusted for inflation. This means minimum wage workers have been getting a pay cut over time. The debate isn't just whether we should raise minimum wage, it's whether we should be cutting it. By allowing it to remain stagnant we're making the default decision to cut.

We inflation-adjust social security benefits annually, we could also do the same for minimum wage.

Would that defeat the point of inflation?

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#56

Post by pg_bot »

You might not lose your job, but you may see your hours reduced or you might not get the opportunity in the first place. Technically the employment numbers don't change, but you shouldn't think of of minimum wage employees like salaried employees. Minimum wage earners can lose fractional percentages of their jobs unlike salaried employees.

Most proponents of raising the minimum wage cite the Card & Krueger paper which has aged quite poorly. It turns out that chain fast food restaurants are a poor proxy for the minimum wage labor market. If you want to know the most up to date data backed perspective on the minimum wage, look to the Seattle minimum wage study.[0][1] In short, the benefits of raising the minimum wage go to experienced workers at the expense of inexperienced workers.

We know that price controls don't work. Having a minimum wage limits the freedom to negotiate the value of your labor at a rate that you'd be willing to take. Instead of a wage that they are willing to accept you force them to have a wage of zero. I don't believe there are any situations where people are better off when a third party eliminates economic opportunities for them.

The national minimum wage should be zero, as is the case in countries like Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Singapore. You could also argue that the minimum wage is unconstitutional considering the history of supreme court decisions on the issue.[2]

[0]: https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/webform/w25812_summ...

[1]: https://www.econtalk.org/jacob-vigdor-on-the-seattle-minimum...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_switch_in_time_that_saved_...

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#57

Post by sobhaobnONJ »

mullingitover wrote: post #9

Minimum wage isn't just flat for a decade, it's not being adjusted for inflation. This means minimum wage workers have been getting a pay cut over time. The debate isn't just whether we should raise minimum wage, it's whether we should be cutting it. By allowing it to remain stagnant we're making the default decision to cut.

I don't understand why this isn't a red herring. Minimum wage may be remaining stagnant but total employee compensation has been rising steadily, it's just that most of that compensation is in the form of spending on employee benefits like insurance. If people quit expecting employers to provide them with anything except for cold hard cash then you'd likely see wages increasing with time.

To expand a bit more on this, large companies in America can negotiate rates with the insurance companies they interact with (assuming they don't own one in house). This creates a scenario where a dollar into the insurance budget yields more than a dollar worth of value and so it makes much more sense to invest heavily in the insurance than in outright wages because a dollar paid to an employee only ever yields a dollar with of value to the employee.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#58

Post by drak0n1c »

Even in the best markets for job-seekers such policies are not without downsides. In every city in America small long-running mom & pop and ethnic restaurants and shops are closing down in favor of two types of places that can afford to swallow the regulation-imposed economic deadweight loss: 1) Luxury hipster establishments that charge $20 for entrees and $10 for beers; 2) Fast food/fast casual chains dependent on leveraged buyout money.

In the end there's only enough room in town for a handful of Katz's Delis to survive (and become expensive echoes of what they once were in the process).

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#59

Post by Flozzin »

atypicality wrote: post #51
Flozzin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a business can only exist if you exploit your labor force, then maybe your business shouldn't exist. The portion of people that work jobs for fun or a little extra income are a minority. There are more examples of people working several minimum wage jobs just trying to survive. Maybe there is a compromise somewhere though. How about if you pay the minimum wage, then the owners/stake holders cannot make more than t…

> If a business can only exist if you exploit your labor force, then maybe your business shouldn't exist. Say bye-bye to your iPhone and all of your other beloved gadgets.

No reason to say goodbye to them. It would just mean that the price would have to increase, or the industries that produce them will have a smaller profit margin.

Apple has $245 billion in cash right now.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#60

Post by hinkley »

mullingitover wrote: post #9

Minimum wage isn't just flat for a decade, it's not being adjusted for inflation. This means minimum wage workers have been getting a pay cut over time. The debate isn't just whether we should raise minimum wage, it's whether we should be cutting it. By allowing it to remain stagnant we're making the default decision to cut.

I'm old enough to remember this conversation happening three times, and wise enough to know that this conversation happens every ten years or so probably since the first wage was paid in currency instead of goods.

A certain pay rate creates supply. Conditions make it hard to switch jobs. And every year you ever so slowly reduce the effective pay to those employees and they slowly give up little luxuries to make ends meet. And when demand outstrips supply, you raise the minimum wage, pulling in a new group of people.

If you're paranoid or cynical, you might call this class warfare instead of unintended consequences.

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