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Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

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Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#21

Post by jonhendry18 »

darawk wrote: post #4
dv_dt wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society. Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of improving operating efficiency.

> This maybe leads to the question of why we should favor any business to continue operating in a space that may be a net negative contribution to our society What does the minimum wage have to do with contribution to society? > Without enforcing minimum wage, and perhaps least minimum full time to part time employment ratios, we face businesses competing on prices by undercutting labor instead of other avenues of im…

"Some businesses cannot be profitable and therefore will not exist at certain minimum wages, though"

If they require lower wages in order to be sufficiently profitable, but those lower wages mean the employees have to rely on taxpayer funded safety nets to survive, maybe the business shouldn't exist?

Because otherwise this is essentially a demand for taxpayers to subsidize the profits of a private enterprise.

If Target and Walmart need employees on food stamps in order to make a profit, maybe we should just fully nationalize them instead of just subsidizing their profits.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#22

Post by didibus »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #16
gamblor956 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The markup on most products is such that US businesses could easily manufacture their products in the US at current minimum wages and still handily profit. They simply choose not to, because that means they have to pay their executives and owners less money and no executive wants to forego their country club membership, each of which is equal to the salary and benefits of 3 or more line workers, or their annual bonus…

> The markup on most products is such that US businesses could easily manufacture their products in the US at current minimum wages and still handily profit. What data are you basing this on? You're also ignoring the most important part - consumer choice. People buy cheap shit because it's cheaper. It's the foundation of Walmart. So let's say the companies here did manufacture here, but then a foreign competitor offe…

I think that's precisely the issue. Economists thought that driving an open market would push up wages as efficiencies come back around, thus both driving for cheaper goods and higher wages. But they didn't anticipate exactly the effect of globalism and the exodus to China happening so quick.

Foreign industries could be taxed to some level relative to what their workers are paid and their working conditions to even out the domestic companies disadvantages maybe. That's already happening to some extent.

I don't know if that or fixed minimum wage is the solution by the way. But I'm saying clearly that's the problem. Companies don't all start with an equal footing, and that can put out of balance the free economy.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/22/economists-globalizatio...

Edit: Eh, I forgot that you can't really have rational discussions on slightly political topics. If you think something I said isn't logical or true, please partake in the conversation.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#23

Post by dv_dt »

Pigo wrote: post #8
atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

I've read reports of Target, and similar companies, cutting back hours of many employees. I take such reports as anecdotal, but I didn't catch them talking about this in the article at all.

I think the unethical part we get into with Target/Walmart/et al is the staffing of multiple shifts of part time work when it's obvious by the numbers that they're avoiding paying benefits for the hiring of fewer full time workers. The systemic question here is if we should allow it to be a financial advantage for companies to do that - especially large profitable ones with a footprint all over our nation.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#24

Post by d357r0y3r »

blunte wrote: post #20

This has been a long standing argument from a certain "trickle down" group in politics. And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong. The economy grows when people can afford to spend. (If this spending is based on credit as was largely the case during the Bill Clinton years, then there is a later cost to pay - no doubt.) But the fact remains that when people can…

> And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong.

This is a strawman. Austerity isn't a cure, it's a consequence. If you spend too much and have too much debt, you can't borrow more to make the problem go away; you're just delaying the inevitable.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#25

Post by bassman9000 »

blunte wrote: post #20

This has been a long standing argument from a certain "trickle down" group in politics. And like the groups that promote austerity as a cure for economic woes, they have been proven wrong. The economy grows when people can afford to spend. (If this spending is based on credit as was largely the case during the Bill Clinton years, then there is a later cost to pay - no doubt.) But the fact remains that when people can…

What is not in doubt is that better paid workers means not quite as well paid executives.

Something to back this, other than personal experience/opinion, would be nice.

A = better paid workers

B = better paid executives

Your point seems to be that A => ¬B. Which, even if statistically accurate, seems a bit weird as a causation.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#27

Post by jerf »

What is the time frame for these claims? The last few years when the new minimum wages are coming in are also times of dropping unemployment. The area I live in has not been raising minimum wages any, and the local "minimum wage" has nevertheless become a de facto 11-12$/hour for zero-skill jobs just due to a tight labor market.

If you happen to time your raising of the minimum wage to when the market was tightening anyhow and the market floor was going above your minimum wage anyhow, you won't see any negative effect, but not because you can just raise minimum wage with no effect, but because the market beat you to your raises. It's useful information, but not politically useful information, in the way that people are looking for. The question we really want answered is whether we can raise the minimum wage significantly above what the market would have done anyhow.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#28

Post by IshKebab »

atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

If their total pay isn't less that sounds pretty great!

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#29

Post by egdod »

Pigo wrote: post #8
atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

I've read reports of Target, and similar companies, cutting back hours of many employees. I take such reports as anecdotal, but I didn't catch them talking about this in the article at all.

Axios is pretty biased.

Re: Job loss predictions over rising minimum wages haven't come true

#30

Post by FabHK »

atypicality wrote: post #2

Axios cherry picked the Bureau of Labor Statistics data for the 12 states that confirm the writer's bias. They should have analyzed all states with low minimum wages vs high minimum wages for the overall picture. Reports are out there showing while many of the minimum wage earners who have not lost jobs from the hourly increase are reporting weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

> weekly scheduled hours being cut back across the board.

So you're saying the minimum wage laws are leading to more jobs? (If everyone works less, then more people must presumably be hired.)

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