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Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#131

Post by jacquesm »

_Microft wrote: post #126
jacquesm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it hasn't got anything to do with that. It is simply that complaining about the same thing that another country does while your own country does it too is hypocritical. You don't need to have a perfect record on everything else, but on that particular thing your statements are moot because your opponent (in this case China) will be able to simply ignore you because you do it yourself too . It would be about as ef…

> No, it hasn't got anything to do with that. It is simply that complaining about the same thing that another country does while your own country does it too is hypocritical. > You don't need to have a perfect record on everything else, but on that particular thing your statements are moot because your opponent (in this case China) will be able to simply ignore you because you do it yourself too. It would be about as…

> Neither the BBC nor I are American.

Good, so no need for you to feel addressed then.

> how you would discuss the topic of these chinese camps

I would want to see international sanctions against the Chinese government enacted in some world body. I would like to see the very same sanctions enacted against the USA. In both cases we are talking about serious crimes against humanity. Fat chance this will ever happen, precisely because the most powerful parties in that forum are both guilty of the same transgression. If not for that this might have a (slim) chance of success.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#132

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #128
jacquesm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could easily quote some scripture, but since I'm an atheist I prefer logic: It helps tremendously in taking a moral stance if one is not culpable in the very same way. What's bad for the world is that American also does this. It is imperative to future generations' well-being that the world comes to look more like countries that do this better than America, not that the world comes to look more like America. Mora…

The idea that America is doing things “in the very same way” is just so utterly unbelievable that I don’t know what to say. There are serious problems with the US handling of the border. There are also serious problems with Denmark’s seizure of assets from refugees and Australia’s detention of migrants on an island processing center. None of that should be mentioned in the same breath as what’s happening in China.

It should be because the United States' stance on human rights, specifically those of children in detention camps would be a damn sight more powerful if they didn't violate them with abandon.

From the position of child in China or in the United States detention camps your finer points of morality don't matter one little bit, they are either scarred for life or end up dead.

And now we've crossed into what is actual whataboutism, the pointing at unrelated things in unrelated countries. For the present, the United States is the one country that just might have done something about this and due their own political choices they no longer have much power to speak in the fora where it would matter. You can thank Stephen Miller and his merry band of stooges for that.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#133

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #131
_Microft wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it hasn't got anything to do with that. It is simply that complaining about the same thing that another country does while your own country does it too is hypocritical. > You don't need to have a perfect record on everything else, but on that particular thing your statements are moot because your opponent (in this case China) will be able to simply ignore you because you do it yourself too. It would be about as…

> Neither the BBC nor I are American. Good, so no need for you to feel addressed then. > how you would discuss the topic of these chinese camps I would want to see international sanctions against the Chinese government enacted in some world body. I would like to see the very same sanctions enacted against the USA. In both cases we are talking about serious crimes against humanity. Fat chance this will ever happen, pr…

[deleted]

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#134

Post by mrtweetyhack »

ratww wrote: post #28
_Microft wrote: post #5

The documents reveal how every aspect of a detainee's life is monitored and controlled: "The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed. "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating…

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.

You have a choice to go to school, these people don't have a choice. stupid.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#135

Post by Spooky23 »

rayiner wrote: post #109
Spooky23 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s hard for Americans to take a high moral ground given that conduct.

No it’s not and the false equivalency is incredibly destructive. It must be possible for countries to judge others without being perfect themselves. South Africa was forced to capitulate due to international pressure. They took the moral high ground, even though their race relations at home were deeply troubled. But they could do that because people understood that there was a hierarchy of wrongs and racial profiling…

It’s not forced equivalency.

Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned.

I’m not sure why this would make me cool at parties, but I would like for my government to be able to take a stand against this type of conduct.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#136

Post by simonblack »

I always get skeptical about stories that suddenly show up on scores of MSM websites, rather than the slower spread over a day or two or three that usually happens with 'real' news.

I've been fooled too many times by stories about 'weapons of mass destruction', 'gas attacks', 'Trump's pee tapes', 'Tonkin Gulf incidents', etc, etc that I withhold judgement for some time till the bulk of the back-story arrives.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#137

Post by rayiner »

Spooky23 wrote: post #135
rayiner wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not and the false equivalency is incredibly destructive. It must be possible for countries to judge others without being perfect themselves. South Africa was forced to capitulate due to international pressure. They took the moral high ground, even though their race relations at home were deeply troubled. But they could do that because people understood that there was a hierarchy of wrongs and racial profiling…

It’s not forced equivalency. Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. I’m not sure why this would make me cool at parties, but I would like for my government to be able to take a stand against this type of conduct.

You’re drawing a false equivalence both between the people detained and the condition of their detention.

> Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned.

Of course. And modern nations should condemn China on that basis. But what does that have to do with detaining people apprehended while illegally crossing a sovereign nation’s border?

Self determination is also a fundamental right. People have a right to have a country, and govern themselves according to their laws. Concomitant with that right is the right to enforce borders, because those dictate where one polity begins and another ends. People have a right to decide who comes into their country and in what terms.

There is a reason the UN Declaration of Human Rights reads:

> Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.

Of course it should be done as humanely as possible, but detention in enforcement of a border is fundamentally moral and legitimate, in the same way as detention pursuant to trial and investigation of a crime. It’s a necessary corollary of protecting other peoples’ rights. Saying that people can’t detain other people who trespass on their border strips people of their rights.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#138

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #137
Spooky23 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not forced equivalency. Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. I’m not sure why this would make me cool at parties, but I would like for my government to be able to take a stand against this type of conduct.

You’re drawing a false equivalence both between the people detained and the condition of their detention. > Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. Of course. And modern nations should condemn China on that basis. But wha…

> But what does that have to do with detaining people apprehended while illegally crossing a sovereign nation’s border?

That this needs spelling out is pretty sad: that separating infants from their parents and sticking them in what to my eyes looks suspiciously like a concentration camp (a thing a Jewish observer btw agreed with) is the rough equivalent of what China is accused of here. And that's besides losing track of whose kids are which and the odd corpse as well as kids living in cages. Are we even on the same planet here?

> Of course it should be done as humanely as possible, but detention in enforcement of a border is fundamentally moral and legitimate, in the same way as detention pursuant to trial and investigation of a crime.

There is nothing humane about what is happening on the Southern United States border just like there is nothing humane about what the Chinese are doing.

> Saying that people can’t detain other people who trespass on their border strips people of their rights.

They can, it's the conditions under which it happens that we're debating here. So please don't go and whitewash this, it is absolutely horrific.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#139

Post by pesmhey »

reaperducer wrote: post #53
ratww wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.

But you chose to only select a portion of the text. The second sentence is useful, too: "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth" My school was like that when I was growing up. Your school proscribed when you go to the toilet and how to close a door?

Sounds like a military boot camp.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#140

Post by tracer4201 »

dang wrote: post #116
tracer4201 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a lie, and I hope you’re banned for spreading Chinese state propaganda. There is nothing here that justifies the internment of hundreds of thousands of people, including children. The Chinese communist party is a disease.

You can't attack another user like that here, regardless of how wrong they are. As for "eradicated", obviously we ban accounts that post like that. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? We've had to ask you this before, and yet the bulk of your posts to HN are just fine, so I don't want to ban you. I know this thread is a wretched flamewar i…

I overreacted. My apologies to the community.
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