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The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

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Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#61

Post by shadowgovt »

VvR-Ox wrote: post #30
FpUser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I would say that web search takes good care of SNR. So far no troubles finding interesting stuff.

"Finding interesting stuff" maybe. But finding a lot of the things I used to find some years ago is just not possible anymore. Somehow searching changed as well as the ecosystem of the web itself. The big global players dominate nearly every inch of the web and many sites look like clones of each other. There is a lot more effort being put into censorship and also more threats to ordinary users in my opinion. When I…

I'm wondering how far back you're going, because when I think of "the old web" I think of being intentionally misdirected to a worthless website that had temporarily won the SEO fight and "Punch The Monkey And Win A Prize" flashing ads. Not to mention popups, pop-unders, and all manner of ad-spread malware taking advantage of under-policed ad networks coupled with near monoculture of OS.

Today's internet experience is much improved

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#62

Post by shadowgovt »

johnpowell wrote: post #51

In 1994 I was junior in high school and took as many years of auto-tech as possible. In the end we were rebuilding engines and air-conditioning units. And yeah, our high school had welding, cnc, woodworking, auto-cad, and even lumber-jacking as electives. But I took a lot of auto-tech, three years of it. And the funny thing is I have never gotten my license. I'm nearly 45 years old and have never been able to legally…

Helping someone do legitimate commerce online isn't making the internet worse. Quite the opposite.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#63

Post by mlacks »

I am learning Japanese. I am spending an increasing amount of time searching for things in Japanese, and am starting to notice how often a 'trinet' website even comes up on the first page. Virtually zero. I wonder if the 'the web is dying' mentality is only restricted to English? I would be surprised if English websites made up even half of all internet traffic

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#64

Post by shadowgovt »

cryptozeus wrote: post #25

Wait but goog fb and amzn have been aggressively trying to capture global markets. They have been increasing the footprint, does not that count for % increase from 2014 to 2017 ?? Does not make sense ..point about web is dying is opinionated. Today I can watch Netflix, order from doordash and connect with my family through FaceTime. All via web.

Yep. Author is romanticizing the "democratic" web of the time before facilitating companies simplified the process of getting and being online. The reality I remember is that it wasn't a democracy; it was a technocracy and the barrier to entry was high. It still is; hosting one's own full-fledged web server that is secure and reliable has only grown in complexity in the past decade, improvements like Docker notwithstanding, and it's no wonder average users have flocked to Facebook, Google, and Amazon for simplicity of access.

To take Facebook as example, people seem to often forget that the primary feature Facebook offers the average user is simple low-cost blogging of small thoughts and reliable auto-aggregation of those blogs. No fussing about with running one's own RSS feed or managing RSS subscriptions.

If the "web is dying," it's dying like a wooly mammoth---ill-suited to a changing climate. The mentioned companies created an ecosystem where the fundamentals of communication, location, and commerce can be accomplished without the technology getting in the way. It's no surprise users flock to them.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#65

Post by superkuh »

blackflame wrote: post #9
na85 wrote: post #7

>Internet Service Providers (ISPs) are probably soon going to dictate what traffic can or cannot arrive at people’s end devices. This was the money quote for me. FANG may kill the web, but the idea that ISPs (in my opinion some of the scummiest corporations out there) get to decide what content they serve me and what they don't has the potential to kill the Internet as we know it.

Naw, with the coming of 5G it will destroy their monopolies on the communication lines which should open the door to more local competition.

No. The modulation and time sharing built into 5G only offers 15-20% increase in bandwidth available, MHz for MHz, when compared to 4G LTE. This is not a significant increase. It is not at all like the 3-4x increases in bandwidth, MHz for MHz, that the jump from 3G modulations to 4G LTE did.

Almost all of any potential increase in total speed will have to come from using new parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. To that end the FCC is kicking out old users from the 3 GHz range and auctioning it off to the mobile telcos. This includes both the traditional backend media distribution role and completely eliminating the amateur radio alloacations (ref: https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-360941A1.pdf).

But even with stealing bandwidth from you, me, and the normal media companies it won't replace an ISP with wire. Why? Every single wire or fiber has as much bandwidth to itself as the entire electromagnetic spectrum useable in freespace. And you don't have to share. Wireless, no matter the modulation, can never replace wired ISPs simply because there's not enough spectrum for everyone to use it at once.

Additionally, the 3-4 GHz spectrum really doesn't have that good of propagation characteristics. And mm-wave, well, that's about as effective as a light post light in terms of coverage area.

No, 5G will not destroy any monopolies. That's silly.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#66

Post by superkuh »

VvR-Ox wrote: post #30
FpUser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I would say that web search takes good care of SNR. So far no troubles finding interesting stuff.

"Finding interesting stuff" maybe. But finding a lot of the things I used to find some years ago is just not possible anymore. Somehow searching changed as well as the ecosystem of the web itself. The big global players dominate nearly every inch of the web and many sites look like clones of each other. There is a lot more effort being put into censorship and also more threats to ordinary users in my opinion. When I…

All you have to do is be the change you want to see in the world. There's plenty of us out there still living the dream of the 90s. Your descriptions sound like you're still stuck on the big platforms where money rules everything. Just stop. Start hosting your website from home. Code it by hand. Don't care if anyone but you likes or sees it. It's the best you can do.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#67

Post by Ygg2 »

mojuba wrote: post #40
Ygg2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your parallel between Microsoft and Google. To me, it also implies Google probably won't ever lose the search crown directly, the same way Microsoft never lost it's OS crown, to Linux or MacOS. However, Windows is dwarfed by the Android install base.

True but I think the parallel between Google and MS (of the 2000s) is more interesting in terms of the vital signs in their organization rather than on the product level. Because Windows was only improving from release to release, while Search is getting shittier and shittier (sorry, can't find a better word for at least my own frustration with using it today). So Search may in fact die a quick and sudden death at th…

Yeah, I noticed a trend in Google search just sucking (being less relevant) more and more, but tbh same happened to Windows as well.

However I do find Google's lack of relevancy way (compared to itself few years ago) more stark.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#68

Post by moron4hire »

ptero wrote: post #58
kgersen75 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

> But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. The way I read statements that you replied to is with a silent prefix "based on the experience of folks I work/talk with". If one disagrees (i.e., sees different views prevalent), chime in and say so. There must be a way to express opinions that are between "that's my personal view" and "statistically significant, peer reviewed validation at this li…

That's exactly how you have to read things to take posts in good faith, which is one of the few rules 'round these parts.

Similarly, I'm trying to eliminate the "I think" prefix from writing. It shouldn't be necessary to write "I think Google is evil". Of course the writer thinks that. They wouldn't have written it if they didn't. They can very safely just write "Google is evil".

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#69

Post by riffraff »

roenxi wrote: post #53
kgersen75 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

People who think carefully then call Google 'evil' may as well be the same people who used to call it 'good'. Corporations aren't good or evil. They are powerful. Being good is many things, but a key part of that is restraining the self from acting improperly. Corporations can't do that, they will sooner or later do whatever makes money. Or they get replaced sooner or later by a corporation that will. At best, there…

But Google ten years ago seemed good, full stop. All of their behaviour seemed to be a net positive for the rest of the world, even when done in self interest.

Now, it's easy to see some behaviour which are not.

Even assuming there is a slide toward evil for corporations, and I'm not sure there is, it still seems correct to say that a company is at a given state of "goodness" in a certain time.

Re: The Web Began Dying in 2014 (2017)

#70

Post by glenstein »

ptero wrote: post #58
kgersen75 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"back then Google was still admired by the tech people" "Losing our support" why do you generalize 'tech people' as 'we' ? I'm in tech and I've been for 30+ years. I still admire Google. Sure some tech people don't like Google anymore or even never have. But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. And it's not all or nothing: I want to believe most tech people are mature and educated enough to…

> But I wouldn't generalize my case nor should you generalize yours. The way I read statements that you replied to is with a silent prefix "based on the experience of folks I work/talk with". If one disagrees (i.e., sees different views prevalent), chime in and say so. There must be a way to express opinions that are between "that's my personal view" and "statistically significant, peer reviewed validation at this li…

I want to jump in to underline your point in a couple of ways. One has to be able to make by-and-large generalizations from experiences and guesstimations. We should already know when we read that kind of thing that by-and-large means there are going to be one-off exceptions. So we don't need to hear about those exceptions unless they're intended to dispute the bigger point.

Every time I hear the contrarian anecdote in the form of: "well, I personally don't include myself in that generalization" my first question is whether that's intended merely as a report of a one-off experience, or if it's intended to be treated as evidence in favor of a different generalization. Virtually every time I see this type of Contrarian Comment, it's mute on this most important question and just confuses everybody.

But secondly I think the assessment of Google's reputation going negative is, by and large, a valid one. Though I might say the seeds of that started with the closure of Google Reader and the turn away from supporting RSS, which signaled turning away from open protocols more generally.

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